R brakes and track days

[fun meter]

I've been contemplating an R for a little while now, I suspect it would be more of my cup of tea anyway (sporty driving).
What I wanted to know is what the brakes are like on track? Do they suffer and overheat quickly (like 2.0 TSI), or they a bit more resilient because size increase? I'd expect to need harder pads anyway.

Ideally I need to test drive one, I'll be asking dealer where I got my car from this week, I suppose I can hope.

Cheers

[sb272]

I've had my R for a week and whilst the brakes are impressive I suspect they won't be ideal as standard.

Heat is your enemy. this effects the brake fluid, rubber flexible brake lines and pads. The discs fitted are large enough and vented so will be ok.

Standard fit mineral brake fluid (DOT 4) has a lower heat range than mineral DOT 5.1. There are also synthetic fluids available (DOT 5) but be aware that swapping to those can require that all the caliper seals are changed. If brake fluid gets too hot it will give a spongy and unresponsive pedal with more pedal travel.

Brake lines can be replaced with steel braided items. Once a rubber brakeline gets hot it will flex and expand when you press the brake pedal hard before the pedal pressure is transferred to the discs. This means you suffer from an unresponsive and spongy pedal and a lot more pedal travel. The steel braiding stops the expansion.

Brake pads are designed to work within a certain heat range. The factory pad's heat range is too low for track use so once you use the brakes hard on track you will quickly go outside their heat range and they become less effective. If you fit pads designed for track use one side effect is cold effectiveness. They tend not to offer the immediate bite that the standard pads give because they need to be at a certain temp to work properly.

I have a light track/hillclimb car and just swapped the pads, fluid (to DOT 5.1) and brake lines and had no brake issues. I also have an Impreza which has a similar weight to the R, similar sized calipers and smaller discs. Just swapping the lines, pads and fluid as I did in the track car solved the issues.

You need to be aware that the DOT 5.1 fluid should be changed annually.

And that the material a proper track pad is made from will make a mess of your wheels as they are metallic based. You need to clean you wheels more frequently or you won't get the dust off. If you fit some pad that claims to be track but doesnt have the dust issue it won't perform well (unless it's some ludicrously expensive carbon based system!). Even on the road the track pads make a mess of the wheels.

I wouldn't ask the dealer for advise as you're in danger if invalidating your warranty if they think you're using the car on track.

I've tried Green Stuff and Red Stuff - both rubbish. Pagid RS14s and Performance Friction 01s worked well in the Impreza.

[b0rk]

I've tracked my R as have a few others, the discs are fine but the pads not so good. The key to maximising track life if you stay stock is doing a steady warmup and warm down lap. Actually after the warm down lap take drive round the infield or paddock for 5-10 minutes to let everything cool down nicely.
Limit your sessions to 10 to 15 mins and there'll still be some feel left when you come in.

In terms of changing brake fluid personally I wouldn't bother with DOT 5.1 unless the car is pure track toy as there some high performance DOT4 fluids available for very reasonable prices and the standard VW fluid is pretty good when fresh, the fluid below has DOT5.1 performance. http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-742-castrol ... fluid.aspx.
The standard VW fluid (ref VW501 14-B 000 750) is specified as Dry: >265 °C Wet: >170 °C, but has lower viscosity when cold than DOT4, or 5.1 fluid. The dry boiling point is only 5 °C lower than required for DOT5.1 fluid but 20 °C when "wet".

IMHO changing the pads and fluid regularly is more sensible than specialist pads and fluids.

[sb272]

What pad types and compounds have been tried by those who have been on track?

Good advice above ref cool down. I always do at least one cool down lap after a track session. I also tend to get bore after about 10 mins if driving around with no other cars in sight so I will back right off, letting the car cool and also letting some people catch up, then there is someone to chase. You've not only extended your session and not overworked your car but you've made the session more interesting too

One other important thing regarding brakes and heat is the use of the handbrake in the paddock after a session. Don't! Because the discs will still be very hot they will transfer that heat into the pads and not do them any favours. Leave the car in gear instead.

The proper cool down is also essential for the turbo and engine in general. Years ago turbo cars used to stickers in clear view recommending idling the car for a couple of mins after hard use to allow the turbo to both spin dowand cool. Modern turbos re much more resilient to this and general road use probably doesn't require that level of care. But if I ever track my car I will let it idle for a couple of mins before shutting off the engine.

[b0rk]

I've tried "new recipe" 2010 yellowstuff's TBH wasn't impressed pad fade came in far to early and rather than glazing as good performance pad should when taken to far they left deposits on the discs.
Back on stock and am finding that if treated properly they are remarkably stable once properly bedded. I've bedded them as if they where a performance carbon pad with a series of high speed deceleration cycles.

Next up I'll probably try Ferodo DS2500, Pagid RS 4-2's or Tarox Corsa 114 all of which have suitable fitments. TBH there isn't a particularly large choice of pads that fit the stock front and rear callipers, most the pagid RS range doesn't fit and performance friction don't offer anything. I can see why a big brake kit is the default upgrade route.

[sb272]

Pagid 4-2s aren't bad, bit wooden compared to RS14s but if that's all that's available then I guess they will do!

One pad that is getting high praise in Elise circles is the Carbonne Lorraine RC5+ - great track/race performance but also amazing cold bite too so good for road use. I will be trying these when I get my Elise back on the road, replacing my Performance Friction 03s.

How do you find the dampers on track? Do they overheat and lose performance? I leave mine in comfort for road use and they are very good and the car has amazing composure obumpy B roads - way better than my Impreza.

[b0rk]

I've heard good things about the Carbonne Lorraine RC5+ from others at track day's haven't *yet* investigated if there's a suitable fitment.

I can't honestly say I've noticed a loss in damping performance over a session but tbh the stock springs are probably too soft for serious track use.

[SaRoKo]

The Scirocco R Cup races are being held this weekend in Sepang, Malaysia. I was at the previous series two weeks and was up close to the cars in the pits. As the series are managed by VWRacing, I was surprised the race car has is a mish mash of non-VW parts. The race prep R front brakes are actually from the Audi stock R8's rears and the rears as standard. Dunno how they fare on track tho' or whether any owners in Singapore (the R's are only sold there) has done to R Cup mods...