snow

[andyd68]

Winter tyres came into their own today. We had been up visiting my sister and family in Perth overnight. Woke up this morning to find there had been 6" of snow overnight and it was still falling. Left her house at about 10am to head down the road. Got to the Broxden roundabout on the outskirts of Perth to be meet by a policeman telling us that the A9 was closed southbound. Plan B was a route home via Crieff, Muthill, Braco and Dunblane and then onto the A9. Well, I've never seen snow like it, what a white knuckle ride but I have to say I never lost traction once and the car felt pretty composed on downhills and corners. Hardly saw any other cars moving apart from 4x4s and tractors. Passed quite a few cars - both fwd and rwd - stuck on hills/slopes. Took about 4 hours to travel the 60 miles from Perth and I have to say that I wouldn't like to have to repeat a journey like that. However top marks to my Yokohama W.drive tyres

[Shaun]

^^ good good, mine get fitted tomorrow :-)

[AndyInGlasgow]

Hmmm, not good experience with Roc and Snow.

Seems to lack traction to get going on slopes. Have tried traction off and on, and flipping DSG box to 2nd as quickly as possible.

Once momentum is built up then it's fine.

Don't know if it's a combination of low profile wide tyres and dsg box, but not fun when you have every other car on the road seeming to have good traction. Drove a focus along exactly the same piece of road, stopping in same spots and it gripped easily everytime, the Roc......was rubbish.

[The Don]

Turn the traction control off, and stop driving like girls.



You'll be fine..

[Shaun]

Hmmm, not good experience with Roc and Snow.

Seems to lack traction to get going on slopes. Have tried traction off and on, and flipping DSG box to 2nd as quickly as possible.

Once momentum is built up then it's fine.

Don't know if it's a combination of low profile wide tyres and dsg box, but not fun when you have every other car on the road seeming to have good traction. Drove a focus along exactly the same piece of road, stopping in same spots and it gripped easily everytime, the Roc......was rubbish.

What profile and width do you have ?, me old golf with 18" tyres on was rubbish on the snow, my wifes fiesta with skinny tyres on was fine and went everywhere !, I'm assuming the roco will the same but I'm hoping that my newly fitted winter tyres help things a bit

[sicinius]

Any Land Rover Club will tell you that it is the skill of the driver, not the tyres on the vehicle, that makes the difference in snow and mud. Watch a Swede or a Russian drive a perfectly ordinary vehicle on ordinary tyres in it.

And they prove this relentlessly to newbies on outings and trials when a vehicle gets stuck. Before a recovery is attempted another driver will jump into the vehicle and drive it out without difficulty. Torque is your enemy. Keep the torque off the wheels when you are looking for grip, use the edges of the tyres to bite as slowly as you can, torque on when you have grip (the tricky bit), steering inputs to an absolute minimum and brake almost never.

Cadence braking if you can do it, works better than ABS on as you need to cycle the brakes much more slowly to recover grip on ice.

[Actus Reus]

Left foot braking is a very useful technique too as I was shown by a Porsche off-road teacher about a month ago. The things a Cayenne can do with a pro behind the wheel amazed me...

[nd10]

Any Land Rover Club will tell you that it is the skill of the driver, not the tyres on the vehicle, that makes the difference in snow and mud. Watch a Swede or a Russian drive a perfectly ordinary vehicle on ordinary tyres in it.

And they prove this relentlessly to newbies on outings and trials when a vehicle gets stuck. Before a recovery is attempted another driver will jump into the vehicle and drive it out without difficulty. Torque is your enemy. Keep the torque off the wheels when you are looking for grip, use the edges of the tyres to bite as slowly as you can, torque on when you have grip (the tricky bit), steering inputs to an absolute minimum and brake almost never.

Cadence braking if you can do it, works better than ABS on as you need to cycle the brakes much more slowly to recover grip on ice.

Top tip here

[Shaun]

Any Land Rover Club will tell you that it is the skill of the driver, not the tyres on the vehicle, that makes the difference in snow and mud. Watch a Swede or a Russian drive a perfectly ordinary vehicle on ordinary tyres in it.

And they prove this relentlessly to newbies on outings and trials when a vehicle gets stuck. Before a recovery is attempted another driver will jump into the vehicle and drive it out without difficulty. Torque is your enemy. Keep the torque off the wheels when you are looking for grip, use the edges of the tyres to bite as slowly as you can, torque on when you have grip (the tricky bit), steering inputs to an absolute minimum and brake almost never.

Cadence braking if you can do it, works better than ABS on as you need to cycle the brakes much more slowly to recover grip on ice.

Ok, but how do I use the edge of the tyre !

[ukgazman]

Ok, but how do I use the edge of the tyre !

easy peasy!

[youtube][/youtube]

[sicinius]

>Ok, but how do I use the edge of the tyre !

Demo here.

[youtube][/youtube]

Steer very slightly off straight ahead and make tiny, tiny movements left and right so the edge of the tyre cuts into the snow at a very small angle to the forward direction.

ukgazman's method is even better.

[kevey]

scirocco is hopeless in thick snow,always have a shovel in boot , last 2 days car has been stuck and had to be dug out.

[peters]

scirocco is hopeless in thick snow,always have a shovel in boot , last 2 days car has been stuck and had to be dug out.

Got to say I"m strugglling with my rocco r, not so much when I get going but getting out of my drive from a standing start and I"m no novice having been born and broought up in the north east
. Feel crap putting a brand new R through this in Northumberland, but don't have a choice got to get to work

[sicinius]

Torque is the enemy. The more you have, the bigger the problem. Low profiles with smooth edges just make it even harder. You need the wheels to turn smoothly at the speed of a watch's second hand with the edges of the tyre biting into the soft stuff.

Plenty of salt and sacking if you can find some will help in the drive.

[yellowplum]

Torque is the enemy. The more you have, the bigger the problem. Low profiles with smooth edges just make it even harder. You need the wheels to turn smoothly at the speed of a watch's second hand with the edges of the tyre biting into the soft stuff.

Plenty of salt and sacking if you can find some will help in the drive.

Totally agree, but then it is also the tyres you have on a vehicle as proven with an impromptu test last year by autocar.

[youtube][/youtube]

[sicinius]

Yep, tyres are a biggie. These are what I have on my Defender and there are no conditions they can't deal with. When I used to go out with a couple of mates in Wales we frequently advised walkers that they would not be able to walk where we had just driven (and not because of any 'damage' we'd done to the surface!)



The vehicle weight and length is a big issue, as anyone who has tried to tow something up a wet grass incline can tell you.

But I'd still back myself to drive that 6 series with less wheel slip than they were getting on the 1 series with snow tyres in the virgin snow in the car park. Wheel spin polishes the snow and creates ice. On the very flat compressed, icy snow, the snow tyres are not contributing all that much. Grip is grip and the M/T's above will let go just as easily on ice or hard compressed snow as any other tyre.

The big disadvantage rear wheel drive cars have in snow is they cannot make the small side to side adjustments that allow the tyres to bite.

The point is whether winter tyres are worth it on a Roc. If you're not living somewhere where there is regular mud and snow on the ground or steep slippy slopes and drives to be dealt with, I would say no. Just improve your technique and avoid the worst of the conditions if you can.

[yellowplum]

Winter tyres are NOT SNOW TYRES One of the most common reasons we hear as to why winter tyres aren't needed in the UK is because we don't get enough snow. Winter tyres are designed to be more effective than regular tyres in any temperature under 7c (44f) on any type of road. Cold weather tyres are designed with a larger percentage of natural rubber and silica in the compound which doesn't harden up as much as synthetic rubber in cold conditions.

[RoccoScientist]

Winter tyres are NOT SNOW TYRES

I guess this depends on where you live. In areas where you have a proper winter with lots of snow, there's no use bothering with tyres that are designed for bare asphalt in slightly colder weather. For example in Scandinavia, there are only summer tyres and winter tyres. The former are for bare asphalt and the latter are for snowy and icy roads. It's anyways hard to see the point in these "winter tyres". The tyre warms up as you drive and I wouldn't expect the ambient temperature having much of an effect on how well the tyre performs, except maybe for the first few minutes of driving. At least I haven't noticed any degrading of performance on my summer tyres, even though I've been driving them in temperatures around just a couple of degrees Celcius.

See attachment for what we up North call winter tyres.

[yellowplum]

Winter tyres are NOT SNOW TYRES

I guess this depends on where you live. In areas where you have a proper winter with lots of snow, there's no use bothering with tyres that are designed for bare asphalt in slightly colder weather. For example in Scandinavia, there are only summer tyres and winter tyres. The former are for bare asphalt and the latter are for snowy and icy roads. It's anyways hard to see the point in these "winter tyres". The tyre warms up as you drive and I wouldn't expect the ambient temperature having much of an effect on how well the tyre performs, except maybe for the first few minutes of driving. At least I haven't noticed any degrading of performance on my summer tyres, even though I've been driving them in temperatures around just a couple of degrees Celcius.

See attachment for what we up North call winter tyres.

What you show are spiked winter tyres, these are illegal in most EU countries unless you have either a permit, or display a batch to indicate that you are using spiked tyres.

http://www.etyres.co.uk/winter-tyres-law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RoccoScientist]

Winter tyres are NOT SNOW TYRES

What you show are spiked winter tyres, these are illegal in most EU countries unless you have either a permit, or display a batch to indicate that you are using spiked tyres.

http://www.etyres.co.uk/winter-tyres-law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We call them studded tyres. Spikes gives the wrong impression, since the studs aren't really sharp. Studdless winter tyres (these would also classify as snow tyres around your parts) are also used, but they naturally perform worse on ice.

According to your link the situation in Europe is this:

-UK: No legislation.
-France: Drivers of vehicles that weigh up to 3.5 tonnes can use spikes from November until the end of March. Vehicles using spikes are restricted to a maximum speed of 90 km/h on out-of-town roads and 50 km/h in residential areas. In addition vehicles have to bare a badge indicating the use of spikes.
-Switzerland: Winter tyres are mandatory in Austria (should probably read Switzerland) between 1st November and 15th April for vehicles not using snow chains. (No mention of spikes/studs)
-Austria: The law states that passenger cars with a permissible maximum weight of up to 3.5 tonnes may be operated only between 1 November and 15 April in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice if winter tyres have been installed on all wheels. All-season tyres are also considered winter tyres if they have the "M + S" mark. (No mention of spikes/studs)
-Italy: From 15th October to 15th April vehicles must be equipped with winter tyres or snow chains in the Val d'Aosta area. Otherwise not compulsory. (No mention of spikes/studs)
-Finland: Winter tyres are compulsory from 1st December to the end of February unless otherwise indicated by road signs. Winter tyres must be marked with the M&S symbol on the sidewall. Spiked tyres may be used from 1st November until the first Monday after Easter. (In practice no-one uses M+S tyres on regular cars in Finland (they suck as winter tyres in Finnish conditions). Studded winter tyres are AFAIK the most favoured option, but studdless winter tyres have become more popular as they have become better.) Note! Finnish law permits the use of winter tyres even before the said date, if the weather conditions require it. Thus, if the roads were icy in May, studded winter tyres would be allowed.
-Latvia: Winter tyres are compulsory from 1st December until 1st March. Spiked tyres are not allowed from 1st May until 1st October.
-Norway: Spiked tyres may be used from November 1st until the first Sunday after Easter. If spiked tyres are fitted there is a charge (in Oslo, Bergen and Trondhelm) stickers are available to buy daily, monthly or yearly. From October 15th until May 1st you are permitted to use spiked tyres in Nordland, Troms and Finnmark.
-Sweden: Spiked tyres may be used from October 1st until April 15th but must be fitted to all wheels. Please note that local authorities have the power to ban the use of spiked/studded tyres on their roads.
-Slovenia: Spiked tyres are prohibited.
-Germany: Motorists are obliged to make sure they have correct tyres to suit the winter weather conditions. This may mean the use of winter tyres (with M&S or snowflake symbol) and in extreme weather, the additional use of snow chains. (No mention of spikes/studs, but it is implied that they are allowed.)

So when you say "in most EU countries", you actually just mean Slovenia (prohibited), Norway (allowed but costs extra) and France (speed limit + badge)?