Dreaded 1.4 160 PS Missfire

[Freshclip]

Hey, all. So the beast has claimed another dub.

1.4 TSI,
160PS,
Maunual.
~43k Miles
60 Reg (2010)

So i'll start from the beginning;

I was sitting in the local shell garage the other night waiting for my turn with the engine ticking over. My brother who was in the passenger seat says "sounds rough, this". I hadn't been using it much over the last month or so, due to being in the works van, so hadn't noticed anything on my short runs, here and there. He was right though. Sounded and felt as though it was missing and the idle revs were slightly lower than usual. Decided to have a closer look the next day and after listening a bit closer from outside the car you could hear and see a definite miss in the engine, No warning lights though which i found odd.


Checked all the spark plugs and they were all working so figured its a coil pack so went ahead and ordered one online. Fast forward to today, tried every combination of coil pack and spark plug to no avail. Missing all over the place and if anything it seems worse and more noticeable, maybe i'm going nuts?

Had a few more people looking at it while i was working on it and decided to throw a diagnostics box on it just in case and it spewed out the following codes:

P0300 - Random/Multiple Cylinders (Missfire detected)
P0302 - Cylinder 2 (Missfire detected)

Oh f*ck

Inspected the car closer and found residue up the back, particularly on the exhaust side and there was a smell of rotten eggs (unburnt fuel getting into the cat?)
Pulled the dipstick out while it was ticking over and puffs of smoke were coming from the sump (cracked piston?)

I decided to carry out a compression test and this is where i realized i had a serious problem, Cylinders 2 and 3 both have low compression about 3 and 6 BAR respectively.

Double Oh f*ck.

By this point i'm hitting google hard and find multiple thread about cracked pistons and rings on Scirocco's with my engine model and things are starting to look bleak....

Here's the kicker. I'm way out of warranty period...

Is there anything i can do? I've read things on here about 70% discounts for full service history or even full engine swaps free of charge? Where should i go? Who should i speak to?

For the time being the car is off the road and im looking at options. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Chris.

[froudeg]

Damn man, sorry to hear this has happened. You have a few options...

Option 1 is to go to a dealer and see what good will they may do - although you will have to have a full service history with them in order to get a good discount.
You need to argue that this is a common problem with this engine and it looks to be a design flaw so they should be covering it.
The issue is they will probably say we will have to take the cylinder head off to examine the damage (no point really as it's definitely cracked pistons and scratched up cylinders as a result - and the only route for them from there is a new engine).
The examination will cost a lot of man hours, so you really need to get a good indication of good will discount on a new engine before going down this route.

Option 2 is to take it to a trusted garage, and get the head examined to see how much cylinder damage there is.
If it's not major (just scratched) then you can get a cylinder rebore, and have forged pistons fitted. There have been guy(s) on other forums who have gone this route and its worked out.
Forged pistons are much stronger and unlikely to crack again.

Option 3 is to have a used or remanufactured engine fitted. Your engine code will be CAVD, and you need to ring round and google to see what you can find.

I have same engine btw, and have been concerned about it nuking - its why i'm in process of doing upgrades to limit failure.

Can I ask a few questions - just to get some background info on possible causes / aggravators for failure:

-What fuel do you normally use? (Supermarket unleaded, Sainsburys Super, Tesco Momentum, Shell Vpower etc)
-Are you running everything stock?
-When did you last have your spark plugs changed and are they original VW ones?
-Are you mainly city driving or a mix?

[the_winner]

go to VW Dealer for a Good Will

[Freshclip]

I've decided to go through trading standards and pursue the finance company on grounds that the car is not fit for purpose because ,i'm sorry but, nobody can argue that a car should expect major engine failure at only 42k miles... Hopefully with the myriad of reports online and even the response from Chris Craft semi acknowledging that it is a known/common fault i should be able to argue that I've been sold a lemon. Additionally when i was sold the car i was informed that it was actually the 120HP version and not the 160 so i'm trying to get the dealer to pull up its sale records to prove that. Looks like i'm in for a heck of an argument...

-What fuel do you normally use? (Supermarket unleaded, Sainsburys Super, Tesco Momentum, Shell Vpower etc)
-Are you running everything stock?
-When did you last have your spark plugs changed and are they original VW ones?
-Are you mainly city driving or a mix?

I normally put in standard shell fuel

Yes the whole block is stock, all I've changed is the wheels

I last had my spark plugs changed at 25k miles for NGK's

I normally do dual carriageway or A roads with a short run or 2 per day

[janherko]

Sorry to hear such a bad news...again:(
Just check my thread here: http://www.sciroccocentral.co.uk/forum/ ... =2&t=14390" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have experienced pretty much identical scenario with my Viper Green Roc in August 2013. Only one piston/cylinder was affected and compression tests showed some 6.5 bars on 3rd compared to 11-12 bars on the rest. Initially, I tried to force VW importer here in Bratislava to do their job and swap the short engine with a new one based on their goodwill, but I failed because my car was previously Bluefin-ed by 1st owner, which was recorded in the ECU (I had the ECU flashed to the original map some 3 months before all this occured).
I don't know where you are based at, but Slovak VW dismissed the goodwill ONLY because of the remap. Maybe UK VW would act differently...?
So I decided to go forth and found a CNC specialist who was able to professionally hone and resurface cylinder walls and get it all done properly. The guy had 20+ years experience in such jobs. Instead of new forged pistons (which of course would be the best idea), I had the newer OEM Scirocco pistons fitted. All 4 brand new, complete with piston rings. A fella working for VW showed me the company guidelines on known piston problem in early 1.4 TSi twincharger engines (mine is MY09, which is the most vulnerable). VW then replaced the pistons with much stronger specification, I was able to hold both types in my hands: first one totally damaged from my engine and another one brand new unboxed. You really could see the difference.
Long story short, I've been driving my Roc ever since the engine was repaired and to this day, no problems at all. I did some 35 000 km with new pistons. Along with some other things replaced (sensors, ignition coils, spark plugs, timing chain) a total was some 3500 euros, labor included. I used independent garage here in Bratislava, with regular guarantee though. Performing something like this at authorized stealers would easily double the cost. Complete newer OEM pistons were cca 1000 euros, if you were to get forged ones you're looking at 1800-2000 euros at least for this engine. Don't forget, you always need to replace all 4 pistons.
So I suggest try VW goodwill first, warn them with some EU laws and/or publicly expressing their lack of diligence in case problems arise. If you DIDN'T have your car remapped, I'd say they will help you. Partially, at least.
If you're not lucky enough, go my way as you can see the engine stripped and maybe improve something more. Fitting an aftermarket engine could work, too, but you never know what's really inside when you're buying it. And one more thing, this engine NEEDS higher-octaned fuel. RON98-100 is highly advised.

[the_winner]

Sorry to hear such a bad news...again:(
Just check my thread here: http://www.sciroccocentral.co.uk/forum/ ... =2&t=14390" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have experienced pretty much identical scenario with my Viper Green Roc in August 2013. Only one piston/cylinder was affected and compression tests showed some 6.5 bars on 3rd compared to 11-12 bars on the rest. Initially, I tried to force VW importer here in Bratislava to do their job and swap the short engine with a new one based on their goodwill, but I failed because my car was previously Bluefin-ed by 1st owner, which was recorded in the ECU (I had the ECU flashed to the original map some 3 months before all this occured).
I don't know where you are based at, but Slovak VW dismissed the goodwill ONLY because of the remap. Maybe UK VW would act differently...?
So I decided to go forth and found a CNC specialist who was able to professionally hone and resurface cylinder walls and get it all done properly. The guy had 20+ years experience in such jobs. Instead of new forged pistons (which of course would be the best idea), I had the newer OEM Scirocco pistons fitted. All 4 brand new, complete with piston rings. A fella working for VW showed me the company guidelines on known piston problem in early 1.4 TSi twincharger engines (mine is MY09, which is the most vulnerable). VW then replaced the pistons with much stronger specification, I was able to hold both types in my hands: first one totally damaged from my engine and another one brand new unboxed. You really could see the difference.
Long story short, I've been driving my Roc ever since the engine was repaired and to this day, no problems at all. I did some 35 000 km with new pistons. Along with some other things replaced (sensors, ignition coils, spark plugs, timing chain) a total was some 3500 euros, labor included. I used independent garage here in Bratislava, with regular guarantee though. Performing something like this at authorized stealers would easily double the cost. Complete newer OEM pistons were cca 1000 euros, if you were to get forged ones you're looking at 1800-2000 euros at least for this engine. Don't forget, you always need to replace all 4 pistons.
So I suggest try VW goodwill first, warn them with some EU laws and/or publicly expressing their lack of diligence in case problems arise. If you DIDN'T have your car remapped, I'd say they will help you. Partially, at least.
If you're not lucky enough, go my way as you can see the engine stripped and maybe improve something more. Fitting an aftermarket engine could work, too, but you never know what's really inside when you're buying it. And one more thing, this engine NEEDS higher-octaned fuel. RON98-100 is highly advised.

Forged Pistons are more cheap than VW OEM pistons !!
CP Forged Pistons : 800 euro
DP Forged Pistons : 650 euro
Wossner Forged Pistons : 740 euro
You can use the stock con-rods which are heavy duty !

[Freshclip]

Hey, jan i've read through your thread and it sucks major ass . Luckily my roc is fully stamped up at the dealers from whom i bought it and is totally stock powertrain wise.

Yeah i was looking at forged pistons and could pick them up for about 700 euros but for the time being i am hoping that threatening with UK trading standards i wont have to put my hand in my pocket atall! I've got some other things to wave at them aswell as the car was originally advertised as the 120 PS edition so fingers crossed i can get this fixed! My only fear is amidst this diesel scandal all the goodwill will be thoroughly used up...

Taking the car in for official VW diagnostics some point this week as obviously they wont just take my word for it haha! Gunna cost me 100 quid but if that's all i've got to pay to get this sorted then i'm a happy man!

[janherko]

Sorry to hear such a bad news...again:(
Just check my thread here: http://www.sciroccocentral.co.uk/forum/ ... =2&t=14390" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have experienced pretty much identical scenario with my Viper Green Roc in August 2013. Only one piston/cylinder was affected and compression tests showed some 6.5 bars on 3rd compared to 11-12 bars on the rest. Initially, I tried to force VW importer here in Bratislava to do their job and swap the short engine with a new one based on their goodwill, but I failed because my car was previously Bluefin-ed by 1st owner, which was recorded in the ECU (I had the ECU flashed to the original map some 3 months before all this occured).
I don't know where you are based at, but Slovak VW dismissed the goodwill ONLY because of the remap. Maybe UK VW would act differently...?
So I decided to go forth and found a CNC specialist who was able to professionally hone and resurface cylinder walls and get it all done properly. The guy had 20+ years experience in such jobs. Instead of new forged pistons (which of course would be the best idea), I had the newer OEM Scirocco pistons fitted. All 4 brand new, complete with piston rings. A fella working for VW showed me the company guidelines on known piston problem in early 1.4 TSi twincharger engines (mine is MY09, which is the most vulnerable). VW then replaced the pistons with much stronger specification, I was able to hold both types in my hands: first one totally damaged from my engine and another one brand new unboxed. You really could see the difference.
Long story short, I've been driving my Roc ever since the engine was repaired and to this day, no problems at all. I did some 35 000 km with new pistons. Along with some other things replaced (sensors, ignition coils, spark plugs, timing chain) a total was some 3500 euros, labor included. I used independent garage here in Bratislava, with regular guarantee though. Performing something like this at authorized stealers would easily double the cost. Complete newer OEM pistons were cca 1000 euros, if you were to get forged ones you're looking at 1800-2000 euros at least for this engine. Don't forget, you always need to replace all 4 pistons.
So I suggest try VW goodwill first, warn them with some EU laws and/or publicly expressing their lack of diligence in case problems arise. If you DIDN'T have your car remapped, I'd say they will help you. Partially, at least.
If you're not lucky enough, go my way as you can see the engine stripped and maybe improve something more. Fitting an aftermarket engine could work, too, but you never know what's really inside when you're buying it. And one more thing, this engine NEEDS higher-octaned fuel. RON98-100 is highly advised.

Forged Pistons are more cheap than VW OEM pistons !!
CP Forged Pistons : 800 euro
DP Forged Pistons : 650 euro
Wossner Forged Pistons : 740 euro
You can use the stock con-rods which are heavy duty !

Yep, you're right, I then realized I changed con-rods as well. Isn't it funny that miserly VW dumbasses give you pretty durable con-rod in combination with pretty poor piston? The pistons should be OEM forged with this engine in the first place.

[janherko]

Hey, jan i've read through your thread and it sucks major ass . Luckily my roc is fully stamped up at the dealers from whom i bought it and is totally stock powertrain wise.

Yeah i was looking at forged pistons and could pick them up for about 700 euros but for the time being i am hoping that threatening with UK trading standards i wont have to put my hand in my pocket atall! I've got some other things to wave at them aswell as the car was originally advertised as the 120 PS edition so fingers crossed i can get this fixed! My only fear is amidst this diesel scandal all the goodwill will be thoroughly used up...

Taking the car in for official VW diagnostics some point this week as obviously they wont just take my word for it haha! Gunna cost me 100 quid but if that's all i've got to pay to get this sorted then i'm a happy man!

All the luck to you, give them the hard time:)

[Freshclip]

Forged Pistons as stock is probably the best idea for longevity of the engine but i don't think they would suit joe public very well since oil consumption would rise and the engine would sound like a bag of bolts on cold starts.

[the_winner]

Forged Pistons as stock is probably the best idea for longevity of the engine but i don't think they would suit joe public very well since oil consumption would rise and the engine would sound like a bag of bolts on cold starts.

With the correct forged pistons you will have not oil consumption or piston sound on cold starts

[Freshclip]

I thought due to the higher expansion rate at temperature of forged variantrs you pretty much had to use slightly undersized pistons?

[froudeg]

Depends on the silicon content - high silicon ones are designed to expand under high temperature...but not all forged pistons have high silicon content, you can get them with low or no silicon at all but different alloys and they expand normally and hence you don't need undersized pistons.

[Freshclip]

Bit of an update:

Filed complaints with the dealer, the finance company and the manufacturer.

Still waiting to hear back from the dealer about the miss selling of the car, since i was sold it on the premise that it was 120HP variant, not the 160. Hopefully that will give me some traction and leverage when negotiating with them. In the mean time they want £800 just to take the f*cking head off! I swear to god i nearly did a back-flip when i saw the email come through! After talking to several mechanics all of whom have 30+ years of experience working on cars, 2 of which are actually ex VW mechanics, they all agree that this job would take no more than 3 hours tops... It's a bloody disgrace.

Also still waiting to hear back off the finance company after escalating the matter with a formal complaint letter when they tried to palm me off with some crappy letter of their own.

The manufacturer are about as helpful as a poker in the eye, Their initial response was "we can't do anything until you have an official diagnostics completed by an approved garage" (I.E. The dealer)which cost £100 and told me absolutely nothing we didn't already know. And now they're saying "we can't do anything untill you pay the £800 to have the head taken off... Janherko did you have to pay out this much for diagnostics?

[froudeg]

That £800 sounds like the job cost to take the head off and put it everything back together when they're done.

Its a 4 hour job I would say to get the head off, and they will say another 4 hours to put it back on - which is why they roughly have come up with the £800 figure.
Even at the extortionate rates that they charge they are not more than £100 an hour, so I would check with them just what the cost is to remove the head only and not put it back together.

[AlanH]

What MY is your car?


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[moulin12]

What MY is your car?

Op said his car was a 60 reg, so MY 2011.


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[Freshclip]

60 Reg is the back end of 2010

I will check with the dealer to see if that is dissemble + reassembly but i figured if they found something wrong then wouldn't they want to leave it disassembled until they get the parts to repair it? seems silly not to just quote me for dissemble when i look at it like that.

[froudeg]

I will check with the dealer to see if that is dissemble + reassembly but i figured if they found something wrong then wouldn't they want to leave it disassembled until they get the parts to repair it? seems silly not to just quote me for dissemble when i look at it like that.

Agreed - but never underestimate the stupidity of a front desk dealership muppet. There is no way it should cost that much just to pull the head off - yes a lot of stuff has to come out on this engine but it doesn't take 8 hours+

A simple borescope down the spark plug hole will confirm piston damage anyway - I guess they want to see if they can just get away with changing the pistons and not require a whole new block. If they had a really good optic fibre scope they could examine the cylinder wall as well, but I bet they don't have any borescopes at all.

[moulin12]

60 Reg is the back end of 2010

.

Yes, which means it's a MY 2011. If, for example, you bought a 65 plate, you'd have a MY 2016 car,