TSI or TFSI

[Stu13R]

Does anyone know the differences between TFSI and TSI engines?

I read that the new Golf R gets the latest engine and the facelift Roc doesn't but gets a slight hp increase. I heard the older TFSI engines can be tuned further but all my research so far has been done on the TDi engines.

Just in case someone with a facelift reads this, have you had a remap yet?

[andyy]

My basic understanding is that the TSI engine has a timing chain, and the TFSI has a timing belt. No idea on tuning though mate..

[chelspeed]

I've read loads of articles and half say that the facelift R has the new engine and half that it doesn't. But then a lot say there's a 7 speed DSG on the top of the range cars and 6 speed on the 1.4 which even I know is wrong. So now I don't trust any of the press articles to have half a clue but 90% sure it's the same engine as pre-facelift.

I also hear they've changed the rear suspension layout on the facelift car but again I don't know from what to what.

[wigit]

VW standardised all their engine designations as TSI, the Roc R engine is essentially based on the EA113 which dates back to Ed30/S3 but was referred to as CDL with K04 turbo and is belt driven the EA888 refer to chain driven TSI units

Not the same and limiting factor on this engine was always the fuel pump, EA888 pump is stronger hence why Stage 1 makes around 300 mark

The Golf R engine is latest generation EA888 and maps to around 350-360 stage 1, slightly different power delivery as well

[Stu13R]

VW standardised all their engine designations as TSI, the Roc R engine is essentially based on the EA113 which dates back to Ed30/S3 but was referred to as CDL with K04 turbo and is belt driven the EA888 refer to chain driven TSI units

Not the same and limiting factor on this engine was always the fuel pump, EA888 pump is stronger hence why Stage 1 makes around 300 mark

The Golf R engine is latest generation EA888 and maps to around 350-360 stage 1, slightly different power delivery as well

That makes sense, even though chelspeed is correct in saying the information is varied and inaccurate usually.

I spoke to Regal and they said that the belt driven engine is a better model to tune compared to the newer chain driven and is capable of 500hp+. That discussion did not mention internal mods but just their view was the belt model was the one they would choose for big power.

They also said the new Golf engine was the newer chain driven one. It seems that initial gains are better on the new engine but it has limitations. Next time I speak to Chris at Regal I will get him to explain at a more in depth technical level and write it down for a decent post.

[wigit]

The CDL in the roc has been around since 2007 so had 8 years of development so will have a head start

500bhp in a fwd is always going to be a flawed car

you need to factor in chassis dynamics, point to point a stock Mk7 GTI was quicker point to point than my 330bhp fully sorted in the chassis and brake department Mk6, this was a car i'd had on loan for a day versus a car i had done 15k in, the R carries 10mph more than the GTI in the same route stock

i evaluated this last week and this made my stage 1 look pedestrian

[xjay1337]

A mate of mate has a 440bhp Octavia with a TSI engine. He gets wheelspin in 4th/5th even with decent sticky tyres in the dry.

Anything over and above this on either TFSI or TSI will be hideously expensive and pointless on a FWD.

[Stu13R]

The local dealer service dept couldn't give me an answer on the engines but will get back to me later this week.

They even tried to talk me into getting a Golf R with the lure of being slightly quicker, having 4wd and over £2k cheaper. The sales guy explained it is far easier to get a Golf R due to the anticipated sales being higher. The Rocco R is more exclusive and you pay for the privilege.

[Stu13R]

I just read this on Wiki:

This all-new EA888 range is notable for utilising simplex roller chains to drive the two overhead camshafts, instead of the former engines' toothed-rubber timing belt.

[xjay1337]

The TFSI engines are much more reliable than the TSI engines.
A fair amount of failed chain tensioner failures on the TSI engine.

[Stu13R]

The TFSI engines are much more reliable than the TSI engines.
A fair amount of failed chain tensioner failures on the TSI engine.

So it looks like the R engines although badged TSi are actually TFSI and even the new one is belt driven.

[wigit]

i think in reality the search would have shown this was the case in 2010 so not new

[Stu13R]

i think in reality the search would have shown this was the case in 2010 so not new

I don't doubt it mate, I have just wanted to find out if the new one was the same.

[b0rk]

Point to point or straight line the new Golf R is a faster car.

The tuning scene haven't really scratched the surface of what a EA888 Golf R engine is capable of yet so taking a long term view these will ultimately develop more power with less mods. Software only stage 1 a Golf R only gets you to Rocco R stage 2+ power levels.

Realistically to modify a rocco to point it matches a mk7 golf GTI or R point to point and your going to need to sort out the handling so dampers, arbs, probably engine mounts, this is quite an expensive undertaking on what is a more expensive base car.

New and old rocco r stage 1 = 310hp (+£450), stage 2 = 330hp (+£2800), stage 2+ = 350hp (+£3200), excluding handling mods
New mk7 Golf R stage 1 = 350hp (+£450)

[Stu13R]

Point to point or straight line the new Golf R is a faster car.

The tuning scene haven't really scratched the surface of what a EA888 Golf R engine is capable of yet so taking a long term view these will ultimately develop more power with less mods. Software only stage 1 a Golf R only gets you to Rocco R stage 2+ power levels.

Realistically to modify a rocco to point it matches a mk7 golf GTI or R point to point and your going to need to sort out the handling so dampers, arbs, probably engine mounts, this is quite an expensive undertaking on what is a more expensive base car.

New and old rocco r stage 1 = 310hp (+£450), stage 2 = 330hp (+£2800), stage 2+ = 350hp (+£3200), excluding handling mods
New mk7 Golf R stage 1 = 350hp (+£450)

,

I get it, a Golf is quicker and cheaper to tune and I can see why some owners who look at the figures would want to go buy one. I still say a Golf looks no where near as good and I hope the majority of members on here agree.

I will enjoy my extremely good looking Rocco and concentrate on what counts most - Scirocco driving and modding. Another thing I will say is I will make sure my Rocco get the mods it deserved using all the great advice I have been getting on here. I'm sure a stage 3 with rods, pistons and multipoint nitrous would be a good aim.

[eMiL-VR6]

From what i've heard, the bottom end is good for 500hp+.
But yeah, if you want a "bullet proof" engine, rods and pistons are a recommended upgrade.

[Stu13R]

From what i've heard, the bottom end is good for 500hp+.
But yeah, if you want a "bullet proof" engine, rods and pistons are a recommended upgrade.

I went to Real Autosports today and had a long chat with Chris the owner. He said although it's correct that 888 engines gain more hp on lower maps, the 133 engines are far stronger and less problematic. I had read on another forum that a couple of modded Golfs suffered timing chain & tensioner issues and Chris said they know of several that have also had issues with failing internals.

They would recommend changing the rods for increases above 400hp on 113 engines, but have a few customers running 450hp kits with no issues at all. The OEM pistons are low compression and very strong, along with the rods which are uprated as standard. APR rods were suggested as a precaution,

APR stage 1+ needs on an air intake, HPFP and the remap (standard exhaust). This set up gets 340hp and considering I have an intake ready the cost is less that £1k.

Upgrade to APR stage 2+ requires turbo back exhaust, intercooler and a few bits and pieces which gives about 380hp at an additional cost of £2k.

For less than 3k to get there over 2 stages seems very reasonable. I also like the idea of being able to keep the standard exhaust to start with. The advantage there is you don't buy parts that need replacing later, like the Stage 2+ needing turbo back which uses a different downpipe.

I am doing some further research with Wizards of NOS to see if their multipoint various jet nitrous kit is compatible with the KO4 turbo. If that works one option is to go for rods and keep the same turbo and add 75-100hp NOS to massively increase the power through the rev range where is lacks. This way there would be no need to increase the rev range and move the power band higher which makes the car a worse daily driver like a stage 3 or 4.

[Stu13R]

I forgot to say that Regal are recommending the Scorpion exhaust in preference to the Milltek exhausts due to recent build quality issues.

[wigit]

You should speak to John Hurditch at Statlers in Sheffield about modding these engines, he NOSd his edition 30 and blew it up, also done a big turbo upgrade on a Golf 6R which is bonkers fast

I'd be looking at the BCS system for an exhaust i'd put Scorpion in the same ball park as Milltek

If you car is going to be a manual factor in £1K for a replacement clutch

Personally I rate JKM over Regal any day of the week

[Stu13R]

You should speak to John Hurditch at Statlers in Sheffield about modding these engines, he NOSd his edition 30 and blew it up, also done a big turbo upgrade on a Golf 6R which is bonkers fast

I'd be looking at the BCS system for an exhaust i'd put Scorpion in the same ball park as Milltek

If you car is going to be a manual factor in £1K for a replacement clutch

Personally I rate JKM over Regal any day of the week

Yes I've heard good things about Staler, pity they are so far away.

I have had lots of Nitrous cars and never an issue. It's really safe if planned correctly and far less damaging to an engine than turbo upgrades. The thing with this route is expensive is better. Top of the range controller with safety features for cut off if fuel/air ratio went lean or bottle pressure is low, best pipework, professional fitting, bottle warmer, multi point is a must, wet kit with its own supply pump & pipework and variable nozzles.
Nitrous can be set to bring power in progressive and fade out before boost gets high on a high revving petrol car. Most issues are where people add then and don't have enough fuel or allow them to provide massive power at high rpm, where you don't need it.
Im getting DSG.
I e used Regal and JKM and just my experience is they were both very good. I have no doubt people will have horror stories but my maps/ installs were good at both.