Cold Start-Up Engine Rattle - 1.4TSi 160PS
- RW1
- Legend
- Posts: 4680
- Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:06 pm
- I drive a: 1.4 TSI 160
- In: Candy White
- With a: DSG box
Cold Start-Up Engine Rattle - 1.4TSi 160PS
Back in January, I started to have a cold start-up rapid ticking engine rattle for 2 to 3 seconds after the Scirocco had been parked up overnight. It sounded like this ......
[youtube][/youtube]
It was intermittent, sometimes it did it, sometimes not.
Oh dear, the Camshaft Adjuster is playing up. The suspect part looks like this....
There is a quite a long running bulletin on this TPI 2009810/19, dated 09.11.11. and the Cold Start-Up Rattle for 2 to 3 seconds. The problem can affect 160PS engines upto serial number CAV 213442. My engine serial number was within the production range . The Camshaft Adjuster is part 03C 109 088B and the TPI replaces it with 03C 109 088E.
The Camshaft Adjuster at start-up adjusts the inlet camshaft to speed up engine warm-up by overlapping the valve timing to keep some exhaust gases in the cylinders. Hence the funny "dieselling" sound during the initial running of the engine when cold started. This is to cut down engine emissions rapidly. This the negates the need for an EGR valve (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) to be fitted externally to the engine.
This is how the system works..... (Forget it isn't VW, VTC is exactly the same)
[youtube][/youtube]
The bulletin indicates the job requires about 6 - 8 hours of labour time and the right side of the engine taken apart to get the Adjuster off the Inlet Camshaft. As mine was intermittantly happening, it had me thinking........ Don't want the engine ripped apart.
So a bit of searching around found the W8 engine in the Passat had a similar problem, the difference being, they were also finding engine ECU fault codes which I didn't have. But they had located the problem down to the Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Control Valve. So I decided to investigate and follow their solution........
What prompted me that it may be the Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Valve is that my Scirocco only does 5 miles journey's each way, each day. So the oil temperature never exceeds 70'C and the oil gets very dirty as a result (Hence my mid-service period oil change last year and again in 3 weeks time at the end of April - 1.4TSi Intermediate Servicing)
The Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Valve was known to the W8 owners to be sticking. So I decided to follow their solution........
The Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Valve, part number 03C 906 455A is located here on top of the right side of the engine under the engine cover....
The component looks like this.....
Firstly I thought I would tackle it with VCDS Output - 03 tests in the Enginer ECU section [Camshaft A (Intake) Position Actuator (N205)] which exercises this Solenoid Valve for as long as the test is set running (No engine running, ignition ON only). Gave it about 30 seconds of clicking on top of the engine. Hmm interesting, this had an improvement but it wasn't curing it.
So next, off with the Engine Cover and disconnect the electrical connection. Using a pair of VW repair wires from my VAG electrical repair box, I insulated the one of the end fittings (connectors) and connected up.
With the engine switched OFF, I then connected a 9 volt PP3 Battery to the VW repair wires and exercised the Solenoid Valve, by pulsing the connection. Hold one wire end to the Battery negative while dabbing the other wire on the Battery positive terminal. 1/8th of a second ON, 1/2 of a second OFF.... tick, tick, tick.......
The Valve could be heard ticking. The engine start -up improved again but still not perfect.
So as with the W8, it looked like using 12 volts from the car battery was needed to push/pull the valve to remove the sticking. The Camshaft Adjuster Solnoid Valve has a resistence of 7.4 Ohms and at 12.25 volts from the battery that meant 1.66 amps would be flowing in the wires. I thought using the car battery was a little different from using a small battery like the PP3. So it called for a proper tool to be made.
So I bought at connector body that fits the Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Valve's electrical connection. The parts needed are:
Connector body - 1J0 973 702, £2.05 + VAT
VW Repair Wire - 000 979 131E, £1.99 + VAT (Cut in half to make two short wire ends.)
Then crimp on extension wires to reach over to the Scirocco's car battery.
Here's the initial tool with extension wires crimped on to reach the Scirocco's battery.....
And finally tidied up to look like this.........
When connected up, now was all safe not to damage the Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Valve's electrical connections, had to be at a replacement cost of £78.01 + VAT for the Valve!
With the engine switched OFF, what you do is give the Valve a series of short pulses, about 15 to 20 while the engine is still very warm. Hold one wire end to the Battery negative while dabbing the other wire on the Battery positive terminal. Then reverse the tool's connections to the Scirocco's Battery and do another 15 to 20 pulses. Each pulse is about 1/8th of a second ON with a 1/2 second OFF pause inbetween. Tick, tick, tick.......
Disconnect the homemade tool, reconnect the engine loom's connector to the Solenoid Valve and replace the Engine Cover. Job done!
This worked and since three weeks ago, no rattle. Here is how the engine now sounds today..........
When I do the Intermediate Service in three weeks time, I will give the engine a oil additive flush (Forte - Advanced Formula Motor Flush) clear out the Valve and Camshaft Adjuster just to polish it off.
Saved pulling apart the engine unnecessarily and with an oil flush additive & oil change, this would do the fix in 45 minutes without any major engine surgery! (10 minutes to pulse the Valve, 20 mins oil flush running and 15 minutes oil change aand new oil filter)
But this was not the only thing that changed. The engine runs better when warmed up because the Camshaft Adjuster works all the time as controlled by the Engine ECU. Not only that, fuel consumption has improved by about 8% and the DSG runs in D6 at 30 mph which it didn't do before (previously D5 with spark plug gaps revised, originally D4). I don't know if this would be for all 1.4TSi 160PS engines or just those engines being used on very short runs where the dirty oil is clogging up the Valve and Adjuster.
C.
[youtube][/youtube]
It was intermittent, sometimes it did it, sometimes not.
Oh dear, the Camshaft Adjuster is playing up. The suspect part looks like this....
There is a quite a long running bulletin on this TPI 2009810/19, dated 09.11.11. and the Cold Start-Up Rattle for 2 to 3 seconds. The problem can affect 160PS engines upto serial number CAV 213442. My engine serial number was within the production range . The Camshaft Adjuster is part 03C 109 088B and the TPI replaces it with 03C 109 088E.
The Camshaft Adjuster at start-up adjusts the inlet camshaft to speed up engine warm-up by overlapping the valve timing to keep some exhaust gases in the cylinders. Hence the funny "dieselling" sound during the initial running of the engine when cold started. This is to cut down engine emissions rapidly. This the negates the need for an EGR valve (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) to be fitted externally to the engine.
This is how the system works..... (Forget it isn't VW, VTC is exactly the same)
[youtube][/youtube]
The bulletin indicates the job requires about 6 - 8 hours of labour time and the right side of the engine taken apart to get the Adjuster off the Inlet Camshaft. As mine was intermittantly happening, it had me thinking........ Don't want the engine ripped apart.
So a bit of searching around found the W8 engine in the Passat had a similar problem, the difference being, they were also finding engine ECU fault codes which I didn't have. But they had located the problem down to the Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Control Valve. So I decided to investigate and follow their solution........
What prompted me that it may be the Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Valve is that my Scirocco only does 5 miles journey's each way, each day. So the oil temperature never exceeds 70'C and the oil gets very dirty as a result (Hence my mid-service period oil change last year and again in 3 weeks time at the end of April - 1.4TSi Intermediate Servicing)
The Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Valve was known to the W8 owners to be sticking. So I decided to follow their solution........
The Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Valve, part number 03C 906 455A is located here on top of the right side of the engine under the engine cover....
The component looks like this.....
Firstly I thought I would tackle it with VCDS Output - 03 tests in the Enginer ECU section [Camshaft A (Intake) Position Actuator (N205)] which exercises this Solenoid Valve for as long as the test is set running (No engine running, ignition ON only). Gave it about 30 seconds of clicking on top of the engine. Hmm interesting, this had an improvement but it wasn't curing it.
So next, off with the Engine Cover and disconnect the electrical connection. Using a pair of VW repair wires from my VAG electrical repair box, I insulated the one of the end fittings (connectors) and connected up.
With the engine switched OFF, I then connected a 9 volt PP3 Battery to the VW repair wires and exercised the Solenoid Valve, by pulsing the connection. Hold one wire end to the Battery negative while dabbing the other wire on the Battery positive terminal. 1/8th of a second ON, 1/2 of a second OFF.... tick, tick, tick.......
The Valve could be heard ticking. The engine start -up improved again but still not perfect.
So as with the W8, it looked like using 12 volts from the car battery was needed to push/pull the valve to remove the sticking. The Camshaft Adjuster Solnoid Valve has a resistence of 7.4 Ohms and at 12.25 volts from the battery that meant 1.66 amps would be flowing in the wires. I thought using the car battery was a little different from using a small battery like the PP3. So it called for a proper tool to be made.
So I bought at connector body that fits the Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Valve's electrical connection. The parts needed are:
Connector body - 1J0 973 702, £2.05 + VAT
VW Repair Wire - 000 979 131E, £1.99 + VAT (Cut in half to make two short wire ends.)
Then crimp on extension wires to reach over to the Scirocco's car battery.
Here's the initial tool with extension wires crimped on to reach the Scirocco's battery.....
And finally tidied up to look like this.........
When connected up, now was all safe not to damage the Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Valve's electrical connections, had to be at a replacement cost of £78.01 + VAT for the Valve!
With the engine switched OFF, what you do is give the Valve a series of short pulses, about 15 to 20 while the engine is still very warm. Hold one wire end to the Battery negative while dabbing the other wire on the Battery positive terminal. Then reverse the tool's connections to the Scirocco's Battery and do another 15 to 20 pulses. Each pulse is about 1/8th of a second ON with a 1/2 second OFF pause inbetween. Tick, tick, tick.......
Disconnect the homemade tool, reconnect the engine loom's connector to the Solenoid Valve and replace the Engine Cover. Job done!
This worked and since three weeks ago, no rattle. Here is how the engine now sounds today..........
When I do the Intermediate Service in three weeks time, I will give the engine a oil additive flush (Forte - Advanced Formula Motor Flush) clear out the Valve and Camshaft Adjuster just to polish it off.
Saved pulling apart the engine unnecessarily and with an oil flush additive & oil change, this would do the fix in 45 minutes without any major engine surgery! (10 minutes to pulse the Valve, 20 mins oil flush running and 15 minutes oil change aand new oil filter)
But this was not the only thing that changed. The engine runs better when warmed up because the Camshaft Adjuster works all the time as controlled by the Engine ECU. Not only that, fuel consumption has improved by about 8% and the DSG runs in D6 at 30 mph which it didn't do before (previously D5 with spark plug gaps revised, originally D4). I don't know if this would be for all 1.4TSi 160PS engines or just those engines being used on very short runs where the dirty oil is clogging up the Valve and Adjuster.
C.
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Week 43 Build has happened on time! 22 Oct'09 Scirocco is at Check Point 5 in the factory
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealers Driving 4th Nov. Sorted!
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealers Driving 4th Nov. Sorted!
- RW1
- Legend
- Posts: 4680
- Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:06 pm
- I drive a: 1.4 TSI 160
- In: Candy White
- With a: DSG box
Re: Cold Start-Up Engine Rattle - 1.4TSi 160PS
Recently I decided to go one step further with cleaning out the Camshaft Adjuster Solenoid Valve.
Took the valve out of the cylinder head by removing the securing bolt (Torx T30 - Torque: 10Nm). Put it into a small jar full of Oil Flush Concentrate so that the operating part was fully submerged. Did the same pulsing "exercise" as on the engine above using a 12 volt car battery.
C.
Took the valve out of the cylinder head by removing the securing bolt (Torx T30 - Torque: 10Nm). Put it into a small jar full of Oil Flush Concentrate so that the operating part was fully submerged. Did the same pulsing "exercise" as on the engine above using a 12 volt car battery.
C.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Week 43 Build has happened on time! 22 Oct'09 Scirocco is at Check Point 5 in the factory
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealers Driving 4th Nov. Sorted!
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealers Driving 4th Nov. Sorted!
-
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:07 pm
- I drive a: 1.4 TSI 122/125
- In: Viper Green
- With a: Manual box
Re: Cold Start-Up Engine Rattle - 1.4TSi 160PS
Just a quick comment, although I might have said this earlier somewhere else. That same sound - or one very similar - is a good indicator of a streched timing chain as well. They can get as bad as this, if these kind of sounds are ignored:
[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]
- RW1
- Legend
- Posts: 4680
- Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:06 pm
- I drive a: 1.4 TSI 160
- In: Candy White
- With a: DSG box
Re: Cold Start-Up Engine Rattle - 1.4TSi 160PS
There are in fact three similar conditions but with symptoms it can be recognised which. They affect the 1.4TSi 160PS and 122PS engines.
1. Recognised as a sharp ticking noise on the top right of the engine at cold start for 2 to 3 seconds caused by the early type Camshaft Adjuster. (As the first post)
2. If its more like a chain clatter while the engine starts and initially runs, then the Hydraulic Tensioner is sticking. This Tensioner pushes the Chain Tensioner Guide Rail to tension the Timing Chain.
3. If there is a continuous chain clatter sound. This is the chain stretch that has happened. The noise will happen all the time and results in a lumpy running engine with the engine warning light on and fault codes in the engine ECU memory for camshaft or camshaft position sensor camshaft/crank out of synchronisation type codes.
To an "untrained ear", they can all sound similar. The differences above distinguish which is which.
There may also be a fourth condition asociated with cold start, still working on that at the moment.
C.
1. Recognised as a sharp ticking noise on the top right of the engine at cold start for 2 to 3 seconds caused by the early type Camshaft Adjuster. (As the first post)
2. If its more like a chain clatter while the engine starts and initially runs, then the Hydraulic Tensioner is sticking. This Tensioner pushes the Chain Tensioner Guide Rail to tension the Timing Chain.
3. If there is a continuous chain clatter sound. This is the chain stretch that has happened. The noise will happen all the time and results in a lumpy running engine with the engine warning light on and fault codes in the engine ECU memory for camshaft or camshaft position sensor camshaft/crank out of synchronisation type codes.
To an "untrained ear", they can all sound similar. The differences above distinguish which is which.
There may also be a fourth condition asociated with cold start, still working on that at the moment.
C.
Week 43 Build has happened on time! 22 Oct'09 Scirocco is at Check Point 5 in the factory
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealers Driving 4th Nov. Sorted!
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealers Driving 4th Nov. Sorted!
- cosmin86cos
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:47 pm
- I drive a: 1.4 TSI 160
- In: Deep Black
- With a: Manual box
- Location: Suceava Romania
Re: Cold Start-Up Engine Rattle - 1.4TSi 160PS
"3. If there is a continuous chain clatter sound. This is the chain stretch that has happened. The noise will happen all the time and results in a lumpy running engine with the engine warning light on and fault codes in the engine ECU memory for camshaft or camshaft position sensor camshaft/crank out of synchronisation type codes."
Exactly the same symptoms, except it dos not happen all the time.
Started play up about a month ago.
Exactly the same symptoms, except it dos not happen all the time.
Started play up about a month ago.
Re: Cold Start-Up Engine Rattle - 1.4TSi 160PS
Just a few questions if I may....
TPI 2009810/19, dated 09.11.11. - This only seems to relate to the 160PS unit, is there an equivalent for the 122PS?
Some people are advising that the noise is simply because the engine is running dry for a few seconds and waiting for the oil to be pumped back in, is this the same thing?
What would the implications be if you ignored the noise, would the engine eventually stop starting?
Any ideas on why it varies in frequency, i.e. some say it happens at every startup whereas others maybe one in ten starts?
Thanks
TPI 2009810/19, dated 09.11.11. - This only seems to relate to the 160PS unit, is there an equivalent for the 122PS?
Some people are advising that the noise is simply because the engine is running dry for a few seconds and waiting for the oil to be pumped back in, is this the same thing?
What would the implications be if you ignored the noise, would the engine eventually stop starting?
Any ideas on why it varies in frequency, i.e. some say it happens at every startup whereas others maybe one in ten starts?
Thanks
Re: Cold Start-Up Engine Rattle - 1.4TSi 160PS
Been looking into this again,
If you look at these two videos the sound is slightly different - " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Is that what it sounds like when the chain and tensioner requires replacement, whereas the sound in RW1s video (and here http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/A ... tId=706233" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) is for the camshaft adjuster?
I've also found another possible TPI number for one of those conditions - TPI 2027916
If you look at these two videos the sound is slightly different - " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Is that what it sounds like when the chain and tensioner requires replacement, whereas the sound in RW1s video (and here http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/A ... tId=706233" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) is for the camshaft adjuster?
I've also found another possible TPI number for one of those conditions - TPI 2027916
-
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Re: Cold Start-Up Engine Rattle - 1.4TSi 160PS
My 1.4 160 has only done it about 3 times in the last 2 months. Sounds more like the dieselling noise in Chris's first video. Lasts for 2 seconds.
-
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Re: Cold Start-Up Engine Rattle - 1.4TSi 160PS
I think Chris mentioned the "Diesel" sound is normal on start up. Something about a system that recirculates some of the exhaust gas so the engine warms up quicker.ZephyR wrote:My 1.4 160 has only done it about 3 times in the last 2 months. Sounds more like the dieselling noise in Chris's first video. Lasts for 2 seconds.
I have it on my 2.0tsi, but it lasts circa 1 second depending on how cold it is (which makes sense)
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Re: Cold Start-Up Engine Rattle - 1.4TSi 160PS
Would not just changing the camshaft adjuster solenoid do the same thing? Surely at a higher cost, but maybe a safer option?