Regarding the oil consumption, I checked the oil-refill-can again a minute ago. In daylight this time... And I've been topping off 0.4 litres exactly. But even though I checked the oil-level before I took my "brand new" car home, I must admit that I have no precise memory of the actual level. Too exited I guess... So the enginge might have used a bit less than the 0.4l. As you say, I'd better monitor it for a while. Now that I'm paying attention
This morning it was rainy and around 15C. Small misfires (or backfires, perhaps) on cold-start, not as bad as the previous occasion though. Engine hovering around 1100 rpm.
When driving in general, I've had no warning lamps, misfiring or stuttering. I've not put my foot to the floor before the oil-temp has reached at least 85C, so I don't know how the engine reacts under heavy load when warming up. Not sure I will try either
But there is enough reason here to make up my mind; I will have the plugs replaced, and ask the dealer if they can take a look at the piston crowns. Just to be safe (crossing fingers).
A – EGR warm-up phase until the Catalytic Convertor is at working temperature.
The misfires in “A” are different to "B" and "C". They are of a soft splutter type and only occur at idle speed rpm.
It looks like from responses that this is a 24s4 workshop campaign map characteristic. ie. VW Engine ECU maps:
G5859 (man.)/G5860 (DSG)
0888 (man.)/G8913 (DSG)
1676 (man.)/G9256 (DSG)
No release/G9660 (DSG) http://www.sciroccocentral.co.uk/forum/ ... 136#p88136" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
B – Normal warm-up until the Dash Instrument Dial moves at 50ºC.
The misfires in “B” are pretty hard in nature. They will shake the engine and last for a period of up to 10 seconds if the engine is required to accelerate the Scirocco in any way. It may trigger the Engine Warning light in the Dash Dials triggered by the Lambda probes detecting un-burnt fuel in the exhaust. A set of fault codes will register as a failed coil pack, which is not true!
If this is occurring while driving at Air Temperatures above 15 ºC and humidity less than 20%, then the engine ECU is lacking the latest VW map of 1676 (man.)/G9256 DSG or G9660 (DSG). Any Scirocco built from September 2011 will be to the latest ECU software standard.
C- Further warm-up from 50ºC until the Dash Instrument Dial moves to 90ºC.
Misfiring during this period is not unknown but other causes than the ECU map need to be looked at.
Decided to investigate a little further the EGR phase mis-firing.......
So took out the spark plugs again. This time during the EGR warm-up phase as soon as the engine started and allowed to idle only for 30 seconds.
Two things grabbed my notice.......
1) How clean the spark plugs were from soot.
2) A distinct lack petrol smell.
This gave me a feeling the engine is running lean during the EGR phase when idling.
Plugs were OK otherwise but decided to check them properly. After 15,000 miles, there is no wear on the electrode tips or the inside face of the earth electrode. So the gaps were precisely gapped to 28 thou instead of 29 thou (0.74mm ---> 0.71mm). The humidity had risen from the 15% to 20% of last week to 55% - 85% over this weekend. Air temps remained at 12ºC – 15ºC. On start up with the plug gap at 28thou and 55% humidity, the misfire during EGR mode (as per the YouTube video Golf) was less pronounced. But it was still there.
So with no Exhasut Gas Analyser to hand, time to turn to the “electronic spanner”, that is VCDS and do some deep investigation. Another cold start and a log file made revealed the following:
This is the EGR sequence if the 1.4Tsi is left to idle.
1-4TSi EGR Warm-up Cycle - VW Map G5860.JPG
The YouTube video of the Golf is a similar sequence in timing almost.
[youtube][/youtube].
And this is a sound track of the VCDS data/charts which was logged at the same time below.
What happens as the engine is started, is it rev’s up immediately to about 1300 – 1550 rpm depending on outside air temperature. During the first 1.5 seconds, the engine ECU assesses the engine condition and realises it has a cold engine system to warm up.
So having decided it is cold, it puts the Inlet Camshaft hard over to retard the inlet valves. This has the effect of retaining more hot air exhaust gases in the engine cylinder thus warming them up quicker and also given any new air/fuel mixture charge a warming to aid better combustion (lower emissions).
It also severely retards the Engine Ignition Timing quite a lot which slows combustion down in the cylinders so the exhaust stroke is pushing out hot gases past the exhaust valves while still burning. This has the effect of warming the exhaust manifold and importantly heating up the Catalytic Converter to operating temperature.
The EGR phase finishes when the Catalytic Convertor reaches 430ºC. That is when the idle gurgling noise dies away and the engine settles down to idle at 680rpm.
I wanted to understand why this was occurring now yet 18 months ago it didn’t happen. So digging even deeper reveals why!
I went back through my older log files for the older VW map the Engine ECU had been deliver with G4009. Found a file with a cold start recorded at roughly the same temperature/humidity (14ºC/70%). Close enough. And this is what a comparison revealed.........
The EGR mode Ignition Timing has been changed. In going from pre-24s4 to post 24s4, VW have retarded the ignition further by roughly -5º. So instead of using around 8º ATDC, they are now using about 13º ATDC. OKkkkk..........
If anything, the EGR temperature rise is slightly more aggressive. But given differences in outside air temperatures, this may just be variation on the day.
So, my suspicion of a leaner EGR phase above is confirmed.
And while doing the EGR phase test....................
No misfires were detected by the Engine ECU during the 75 seconds.
So what does this all mean?????
In the EGR phase while the Engine is idling, they have leaned off the injected fuel and retarded the ignition further. This leads to more of the combustion occurring in the exhaust manifold. Hence why the spluttering noise in the exhaust that can be heard now and not with pre 24s4 engine maps. Other factors such as fuel RON rating, air temperature, humidity and spark plug gap will also influence how much the spluttering occurs and its level. And the Engine is recognising through its Knock Sensor that the cylinder has fired.
Perhaps one question that remains.... “What happens if I drive the Scirocco while in the EGR phase with the misfiring occurring???”
That is quite simple, the EGR Ignition Timing and Fuelling are stopped and the Engine ECU changes its Ignition Timing to an advanced timing point (BTDC) as you would expect an engine to run with Injection Timing (fuelling) to match.
1-4TSi EGR Warm-up Cycle - VW Map G4009 v G5860 Revving during EGR.JPG
If the engine resumes idling while the EGR phase is not complete, then the idling engine resumes the EGR mode with retarded Ignition (ATDC) and lean fuelling until the Catalytic Converter has achieved operating temperature. This can be seen in the charts above.
Conclusion!
The exhaust spluttering is quite normal with the engine idling during the first 75 seconds while performing the EGR warm-up phase. VW have slightly delayed the combustion process further so it burns more in the exhaust manifold with the 24s4 Engine ECU maps to aid heating of the Catalytic Converter and improve Cold Start Emissions slightly.
It is not a fault. Drive normally.
C.
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Week 43 Build has happened on time! 22 Oct'09 Scirocco is at Check Point 5 in the factory
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealersDriving 4th Nov. Sorted!
Very interesting read. VERY! There's something fascinating about dedication and skill
Splutter it is then. Soft splutter. And VW has done all this to warm up the catalytic converter to operating temerature faster? Surely they're not that environmetally concious? Maybe the EU-standard for measuring emission includes cold-start...(?)
I can rule out B and C type of misfires, I've definitely not experienced them. In the EGR warm-up phase everything's normal, apparently. Soft splutter! Maybe except the two first coughs on friday 1st. Perhaps they were splutters too, only they were not soft
I've not quite dared to touch the accelerator in the EGR-phase, but, as you explain, the car would simply change the Ignition Timing. No more worries there either!
Regardless, I've booked an appointment with the dealer. On friday 15th they will change the spark-plugs and have a look inside the cylinders! And I asked them to confirm if 03C 905 601A was the correct plug. Which they did.
I'm quite happy to have the 0.8mm-gap, and an inspection inside the cylinders will settle my last bit of concern (hopefully).
There have been some "other" events not mentioned above where by the engine had bigger misfires while testing. They happened after I had stopped the engine during the EGR mode, left it an hour or so and then re-started. The engine didn't like this and was rougher and more spluttery. Unfortunately VCDS was not connected.
There is a possible explanation for this.... the Lambda Probes are not operational until the coolant reaches 45ºC. So the ECU is blind to the condition of the exhaust gases. Therefore if the engine is restarted a little while later while still a little warm, it assumes the fuelling level to be used. It felt that the ECU was administering a higher level of fuelling for the temperature conditions in the exhaust manifold which would be much warmer. So there is more fuel to the stuttering misfire due to the retarded timing and delayed combustion.
So there may be a variance between engines with the lack of the Lambda Probe feedback to the ECU.
The second cause may be the spark plug gap if it is set at 0.9mm. If so, this may be causing a poor ignition of the delayed combustion, so more burns in the exhaust. And if the spark fails to ignite the weak warm up mixture in the EGR mode, one misfire will not register a fault code but would show up in the Measuring Block fields of the ECU for VCDS to log.
If you can recover the old spark plugs and measure the gaps, that would be confirmation.
C.
Week 43 Build has happened on time! 22 Oct'09 Scirocco is at Check Point 5 in the factory
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealersDriving 4th Nov. Sorted!
RW1 wrote:Perhaps one question that remains.... “What happens if I drive the Scirocco while in the EGR phase with the misfiring occurring???”
That is quite simple, the EGR Ignition Timing and Fuelling are stopped and the Engine ECU changes its Ignition Timing to an advanced timing point (BTDC) as you would expect an engine to run with Injection Timing (fuelling) to match.
This is slightly att odds with my own experiences with the CAXA engine. Driving the car in the middle of warm up phase will result in jumpy behaviour and the ECU clearly doesn't know how to handle the situation properly. I even managed to get a "System fault: Start-Stop" message accompanied by a yellow warning light, while revving the car to 2000 rpm on neutral - or rather 1850-2100 rpm, since the needle kept jumping up and down when keeping the throttle steady - during the warm up phase (strangely no fault codes, though). Also heard popping noises from the vicinity of the cat during this small test, kinda like someone had been setting off tiny firecrackers in a steel pot one at a time.
So, based on my personal experiences, I'd suggest that the catalytic converter warm up phase should be let run its course.
I suggest you do a VCDS log of the engine warm-up as it shouldn't do that.
Two runs ... (RPM v Coolant Temp v Ignition Timing v Injection Timing v Lambda Probe).
1) Just the idling as below in the chart.
2) On another day with cold start and this time at 15 seconds rev it to 2,000 - 2,500 rpm for about 5 to 8 seconds to get a sample of the ECU's behaviour when the roughness occurs.
This is the whole sequence for a 10 minute run while just idling a few days ago. (There is a rpm blip at the latter end to 3,000 rpm which was me looking at parameter changes at 55'C Coolant Temperature point and behaviour) ( The 35'C Coolant Temp misfire on dry air days is now understood because of this log. Plug gaps was a good solution back in June 2010 when VW had no fix.) VW will have shifted the decrease in fuel in the cold start map 35'C towards the 40'C coolant temperature point in the current maps to compensate for "supercharger" weak mixture.
Cold Start Charts 100612.JPG
C.
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Week 43 Build has happened on time! 22 Oct'09 Scirocco is at Check Point 5 in the factory
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealersDriving 4th Nov. Sorted!
RW1 wrote:I suggest you do a VCDS log of the engine warm-up as it shouldn't do that.
It would certainly be interesting, as several others with a 1.4 TSI CAXA have reported the same jumpy behaviour (especially bad apparently if you have a DSG) and even the dealer claimed that it's normal the engine might seem a bit feisty during that warm up phase and that there's even a service bulleting (or somtehing) saying it's normal. Of course there shouldn't be any system faults, but then again I doubt many would "tease" their engine the way I did. I'll have to see if I can arrange the logging at some point (I don't have a VCDS myself).
RoccoScientist wrote:1.4 TSI CAXA have reported the same jumpy behaviour (especially bad apparently if you have a DSG)
Scirocco 122PS does not have DSG.
RoccoScientist wrote:there's even a service bulleting (or somthing) saying it's normal
Not to my knowledge Maybe other models, but not the Scirocco.
CAVD 1.4TSI 160PS has only one fault for misfire below 90'C. ie. the fuelling issue/supercharger/low humidity at 35'C as already discussed above. [Not a CAXA fault.] This has been fixed by ECU map change - Wk48/2010 - "24s4 Issue 2" & 3a DSG only.
CAXA 1.4TSi 122PS has a problem with rough running - cold engine/at high rpm/dash warning ON. Maps should start with 9*** which have the rectification. [Not a CAVD fault.] This has been fixed from April 2011 if the fault is reported or in production build.
Perhaps when you look with VCDS, you should have an Autoscan logged as well and let's see the section showing your Scirocco's 01- Engine ECU Controller build info.
C.
Week 43 Build has happened on time! 22 Oct'09 Scirocco is at Check Point 5 in the factory
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealersDriving 4th Nov. Sorted!
The exhaust spluttering is quite normal with the engine idling during the first 75 seconds while performing the EGR warm-up phase. VW have slightly delayed the combustion process further so it burns more in the exhaust manifold with the 24s4 Engine ECU maps to aid heating of the Catalytic Converter and improve Cold Start Emissions slightly.
Honestly RW1, you should run a workshop (or maybe you do?)... My findings, although gathered through more simple means (ELM) overlap your's somehow.
I've found out, that until catalytic converter reaches more than 316C, strange things happen with readings of Air/Fuel ratio (until 200C it's too constant to be true, and afterwards it's lean - around 15).
Also I can confirm, that whenever I push throttle on neutral, or start driving, the misfires DO NOT occur until I idle again.
Anyways, realy glad to hear that. Maybe the dealership was right then, about the engine working alright, but they did nothing to explain what actualy is happening with the engine...
Ah, no, of course not. Apologies for being a bit unclear, I meant also people driving Golfs when I said "several people".
Not to my knowledge Maybe other models, but not the Scirocco.
I'll have to refresh my memory, since I'm pretty sure I have the bulletin in an e-mail. In any case I live in Finland and while service bulletings should come from the factory, it sometimes feel like we have a system of our own here (meaning nobody's ever heard of problems with timing chains, DSGs etc. - it's always (if I'm allowed a slight exaggeration) the first case of such problems they've come across ).
Perhaps when you look with VCDS, you should have an Autoscan logged as well and let's see the section showing your Scirocco's 01- Engine ECU Controller build info.
Load them into the "VCDS/Scaling" folder.
Hook up VCDS to the Scirocco diagnostics and switch on the ignition (don't start the engine).
Then in the 01-Engine controller screen, press "Adv.Meas. Values"
In the right hand window, in the top left corner, press the very small VCDS symbol.
Now select either file by the loading option in the drop down.
In the left window, the parameters will appear.
Start the logging.
Start the engine & run for specific time.
Stop the logging and exit. The log file will be automatically saved in the "Logs" folder.
Exit VCDS. Stop the engine and switch off.
The file is a .csv spreadsheet file.
Open up and re-save as an Excel spreadsheet (or other application) and make the charts in this spreadsheet.
These are the logging list file contents that were used. They may need to be modified for 122PS Measuring Block group/field numbers to pick up the same parameters as the 160PS.
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Week 43 Build has happened on time! 22 Oct'09 Scirocco is at Check Point 5 in the factory
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealersDriving 4th Nov. Sorted!
Soft splutter/misfire:
Plugs changed yesterday (friday 15th of june), new ones fitted are 03C 905 601 A/NGK PZFR6R8EG
Dealer had several people to evaluate how it looks inside the cylinders, and they say they can't find anything that makes them worried. So that's good news!
Three cold-starts since the change, and soft splutter on two occasions. No large coughs like the first time after the ECU-update. Seems to be normal then!
I still leave the throttle alone during EGR warm-up, and while driving the engine continues to behave perfectly. When idling (engine warm) I do notice small irregularities, but none that makes the rpm needle move. And when putting a finger lightly on the steeringwheel, I can't feel any particular vibration. So that's probably perfectly OK too!
Oil-consumption:
Measured wednesday 13th, driven 700 km (435 miles) since last check. This time I used only 0,5 dl of oil, which is good. I will keep on monitoring the usage
I forgot to purchase a measuring tool today, so I haven't measured the gap on the old spark plugs. I will post figures later. But here are some pictures of the old plugs. They've done 34000 km (21130 miles):
- Edit -
Monday 18th of june:
Measured gaps today, and each plug-gap was between 0.85mm and 0.90mm. The 0,85mm blade did fit nicely,with less margin on two of the plugs, and a bit more on the other two. The 0,90mm blade didn't fit on either of the plugs.
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RW1, I copy-pasted your report along with the pictures and a link to this thread to a Finnish VW Group forum, since the subject seems to come up now and then. I hope you don't mind.
RoccoScientist wrote:RW1, I copy-pasted your report along with the pictures and a link to this thread to a Finnish VW Group forum, since the subject seems to come up now and then. I hope you don't mind.
No problem, your posts are always referenced/credited when I read them on F VW Grp..
C.
Week 43 Build has happened on time! 22 Oct'09 Scirocco is at Check Point 5 in the factory
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealersDriving 4th Nov. Sorted!
There I go again, expressing myself in too compressed a form. "Finnish VW Group forum" seems to have been too short a version of what I meant, which was "a Finnish forum for VW Group car (mainly Audi, Seat, Skoda & Volkswagen) owners and enthusiasts" - vagarena.fi, to be exact. I don't know why any of my posts would be referenced or credited anywhere else. If they are, should I worry?
The exhaust spluttering is quite normal with the engine idling during the first 75 seconds while performing the EGR warm-up phase. VW have slightly delayed the combustion process further so it burns more in the exhaust manifold with the 24s4 Engine ECU maps to aid heating of the Catalytic Converter and improve Cold Start Emissions slightly.
It is not a fault. Drive normally.
C.
Now confirmed on TPI - 2029868/1, 18.06.12
VW wrote:• After a cold start the idle speed increases intermittently for 30 seconds to about 1200 rpm. This makes the engine appear a bit rough/ unsteady
.. (altered idle speed characteristic).
• Sometimes the exhaust system seems to be blaring.
In order to reach the engine operating temperature quickly after a cold start the idle speed is
increased and the ignition angle is altered to late. This changes the idle speed characteristics.
Try to reproduce this idle speed increase together with your customers. Explain to him that this is necessary and normal.
Change - None required.
C.
Week 43 Build has happened on time! 22 Oct'09 Scirocco is at Check Point 5 in the factory
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealersDriving 4th Nov. Sorted!
RW1 Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:57 pm wrote:CAXA 1.4TSi 122PS has a problem with rough running - cold engine/at high rpm/dash warning ON. Maps should start with 9*** which have the rectification. [Not a CAVD fault.] This has been fixed from April 2011 if the fault is reported or in production build.
Perhaps when you look with VCDS, you should have an Autoscan logged as well and let's see the section showing your Scirocco's 01- Engine ECU Controller build info.
Have you had chance to do this? (So I can check the software build.)
RoccoScientist Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:17 am wrote:This is slightly att odds with my own experiences with the CAXA engine. Driving the car in the middle of warm up phase will result in jumpy behaviour and the ECU clearly doesn't know how to handle the situation properly. I even managed to get a "System fault: Start-Stop" message accompanied by a yellow warning light, while revving the car to 2000 rpm on neutral - or rather 1850-2100 rpm, since the needle kept jumping up and down when keeping the throttle steady - during the warm up phase (strangely no fault codes, though). Also heard popping noises from the vicinity of the cat during this small test, kinda like someone had been setting off tiny firecrackers in a steel pot one at a time..
There are developments depending on the engine ECU software build standard.
If the software is not up to date, then update the engine ECU software.
If the engine ECU software is up to date and problem persists, then the problem has to be reported to your importer (VW Finland), by the dealership and if possible a video provided. (Now issued TPI 2028088-02,18.06.12.)
C.
Week 43 Build has happened on time! 22 Oct'09 Scirocco is at Check Point 5 in the factory
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealersDriving 4th Nov. Sorted!
RW1 wrote:Have you had chance to do this? (So I can check the software build.)
Not yet, unfortunately. I don't have anyone with a VCDS living nearby anymore so it's a bit difficult to organize, since I should either loan it from someone or the owner would have to to drive to my place in the morning or to my workplace in the afternoon. Of course, I could take it to a car service but then it'll cost me and the car would have to stay there for several hours, since the engine needs to have time to cool down properly.
If the software is not up to date, then update the engine ECU software.
If the engine ECU software is up to date and problem persists, then the problem has to be reported to your importer (VW Finland), by the dealership and if possible a video provided. (Now issued TPI 2028088-02,18.06.12.)
I've reported the issue already in summer 2010 and I was told then everything was normal. I don't think I've showed the dealer the video I shot last summer, but I've had the car checked out several times during warranty - which ended in February - and they've never found any fault codes related to this or anything wrong with the engine. Even the start-stop failure hadn't left any fault codes (we checked them when I got help switching the XDS on), which I found very odd. The last software update I know of was made early 2011 or late 2010 and it was supposed to make the engine warm up faster during winter. If the software has been updated after that, I've either forgotten or I haven't been told about it.
RoccoScientist wrote:I've reported the issue already in summer 2010 and I was told then everything was normal......
The above TPI wasn't issued/instructing back then. VW are now if mis-fires still persist after the latest engine ECU software update is installed.
RoccoScientist wrote:and they've never found any fault codes related to this or anything wrong with the engine. Even the start-stop failure hadn't left any fault codes (we checked them when I got help switching the XDS on), which I found very odd.
Sometimes that happens, this was a faulty injector but no fault codes even though the engine ran rough in front of me. Old simple mechanics of checking the engine found it and the dealer dealt with the problem having been focused. They found the injector had a poor spray pattern
(http://www.sciroccocentral.co.uk/forum/ ... hilit=+pcv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).
Also, fault codes can point to a fault which when investigated is a consequence, not the fault. 1.4TSi Spark plugs was an example, diagnostics indicated coil packs. Spark plug gap was the issue and shortening the gap solved the problem. VW followed 12 months later with a revised spark plug part to get the plug gap right . The trick is to understand the situation, not just look at a PC screen and follow like a sheep. (http://www.sciroccocentral.co.uk/forum/ ... 81&p=54066" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ....... http://www.sciroccocentral.co.uk/forum/ ... 9mm#p58857" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
RoccoScientist wrote:The last software update I know of was made early 2011 or late 2010 and it was supposed to make the engine warm up faster during winter. If the software has been updated after that, I've either forgotten or I haven't been told about it.
If it hasn't been updated since the faster warm-up ECU software update, then you are two software updates behind the current issue level. One of which is an update for a warming up engine with misfire at higher engine rpm & Engine Warning Light ON in the dash with fault codes stored.
C.
Week 43 Build has happened on time! 22 Oct'09 Scirocco is at Check Point 5 in the factory
23 Oct'09 Now Complete on the dockside, 24 Oct'09 Sailed from Portugal, 27 Oct'09 In the UK,
29 Oct'09 at dealersDriving 4th Nov. Sorted!
Scirocco 122PS does not have DSG.
