Scirocco Central

With the current rumpus over VW and diesel, what is the future for diesel Scirocco's? Why a company such as VW tried to deceive the US authorities, I simply cannot imagine?

Well I for one will never bring mine to VW if they announce a recall for some sort of software update. Not even for a service. This may not even apply to European cars as they are tested differently to the American ones (though it probably will).

Tallguy wrote:With the current rumpus over VW and diesel, what is the future for diesel Scirocco's? Why a company such as VW tried to deceive the US authorities, I simply cannot imagine?

Essentially, this is a non story in the UK. The engine in question has (had) software installed which cheated the nox emissions test in the US. There is no test in the UK for this software to cheat, so carry on lads and lasses. Nothing to see here....

I believe the software controlled the AdBlue which as far as I'm aware is not used much with the latest engines in Europe by VAG.

Far as I've seen so far the only car I know of using adblue is the Audi a6 ultra, and my God does the owner of our company's one drink some! It's ad 25litres in about 3 weeks & from what I gather from a quick Google it's usually just replaced come service time

I don't particularly want to take mine back if it was to get recalled as it they will update the software it would remove my revo remap.

Cuprabob wrote:I believe the software controlled the AdBlue which as far as I'm aware is not used much with the latest engines in Europe by VAG.

The Type EA 189 diesel engine was without Adblue in the main, but some models (such as the Passat from 2012 onwards) had it added. The affected engins software cheat wasn't to do with Adblue, but it was to do with making the standard engine perform like an Adblue equipped engine.

Is it just the EA189 that is the subject of this controversy - and if so is that engine installed in Sciroccos?

There are others :

"Volkswagen has also stated that 11 million vehicles sold worldwide are affected in addition to the 480,000 vehicles with 2.0L TDI engines sold in the US.[41] According to Volkswagen, vehicles sold in other countries with the 1.5L 4-cylinder TDI engine known as Type EA189 are also affected. The EA189 TDI is a 2.0L four-cylinder engine which includes the incriminated Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) technology. This software is also said to affect EA188 and the 2015 EA288 generation of the four-cylinder."

not sure why everyone's referring to adblue only engines specifically but see here for detailed facts :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswa ... ns_scandal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Sent from my phone

Viking wrote:

Tallguy wrote:With the current rumpus over VW and diesel, what is the future for diesel Scirocco's? Why a company such as VW tried to deceive the US authorities, I simply cannot imagine?

Essentially, this is a non story in the UK. The engine in question has (had) software installed which cheated the nox emissions test in the US. There is no test in the UK for this software to cheat, so carry on lads and lasses. Nothing to see here....

Close... But not quite.

US emissions are self cert so basically you do the testing in house, keep a copy of your results (and have more than 1 set to show repeatability) and then when the US authorities ask for your evidence of compliance you supply it, now it could be some states chose to do a COP (conformity of production) test to validate your in house results before you are allowed to sell, others will check once the cars are in service, or may never check unless they think there is an issue.

For Europe (and some other markets which accept the European results) the emissions test is witnessed and an approval issued by a member state type approval authority.

The drive cycles and other emissions tests (as there's multiple types of test from the driving test, durability, crank case emissions) are different for US and Europe so what works for one may not for the other, and writing the code for one so it knows it is doing a witness test is not going to work for the other without some tweaks.

The issue as I under stand it relates to NOx emissions (nitrogen oxides of varying types), which in California are very tightly controlled. The NOx gasses can be felt with in 2 ways when chasing very low figures, firstly a Lean NOx Trap (LNT) this is generally either a seperate cat, or you can have 1 big cat with 2 internal sections, basically 2 cats in 1), the LNT has a special coating which acts like a sponge to trap the NOx, then when full extra fuel is injected into the cat in front of the LNT which causes the temp to be increased greatly and the NOx burnt off in sumple terms. The down side to this is lower MPG as extra fuel is needed to burn this NOx off, however if you don't inject the extra fuel once the trap is full the excess NOx just passes on through and out the exhaust, with the benifit of no loss in MPG for the user as extra fuel is not being used to clean the trap... The down side is lots of NOX being released into the atmos that shouldn't be.

I don't believe that the EU 2.0CR engines ever had the LNT fitted but I could be wrong,

The other way is via a Selective Cat Reduction (SCR) this system is more effective with dealing with NOx so can get lower levels (which is why nearly all the bigger 2.0 etc VW group EU6 engines use this system - smaller cars with smaller engines are more efficient so don't tend to be so close to the limit on emissions and therefore don't need fancy after treatments, also the new EU6 engines and later eu5 I believe are a fundamentally different engine, ie the 150 and 184bhp engines)

SCR is a bit like LNT in that it absorbs the NOx but in order to clean the cat it used urea injection (otherwise known as adBlue) to start the chemical reaction. This system was fitted to the 2.0L passage in the US from 2014 on which are also effected, in this case the vehicle was not injecting the urea when the trap was full as again this can lower the MPG of the vehicle,

that is as I understand it from what I have been reading (I'm reading the official epa letter tomorrow at work and going through it all),

As I say the E189 engine is fitted to lots of cars as it's the 2.0L CR diesel, but there have been a few generations of it, and although the engine is the same this issue relates to the after treatment, if you don't have LNT or SCR then I doubt you will be effected (however I say doubt, as there is always a trade off between emissions and MPG / Power, if you can raise the emissions you can get more MPG provided you don't mind which emissions are raised),

Also the E189 engine is fitted to LOTS of VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda cars, however the US info seems to imply it only affects the transverse fitement and then only the VW brand (plus A3) and this could be due to which brand has ownership of that engine / chassis combo, so seat, Audi, and skoda do their own engine tunes even though the basics engine is VWs, but if they have coded them without any defeat devices..or they don't sell into markets like the US with super low NOx limits, but customers who want mega MPG, so no need to cheat.. That's my guesses so far on what I have read..

Hmmmm
I went into Eurocanterbury to book W in for his mot yesterday morning
The ENTIRE service staff were in a meeting which lasted as long as I was in there (40mins+)
Obviously not a great day to go into a main dealers but forgiveable given the circumstances I guess

Now given that there is a scandal here, and given my utter lack of trust on any outfit motivated by raising money I predict a rise in road tax for VW turbo Diesel engines in the next 24 months


I hope I'm wrong but I just have a feeling that the government will stick it to us & let us take it up with VW

It's what I'd do if I was In charge - basically a win win for the government - put up prices & blame someone else

Thoughts ?

Tax is based on CO2, not Nox, so there would be no grounds to raise tax, plus there is no evidence yet that European cars are actually involved, just rumour and maybes...and if they did somehow come to the conclusion that there had been tax avoidance going on it would be the manufacture who would be fined not the user as the user purchased the vehicle in good faith on the back of verified official witnessed data.

"Well I for one will never bring mine to VW if they announce a recall for some sort of software update. Not even for a service."

That would seem to be a prudent policy, because you never know what a VW dealer will do, regardless of what they tell you they will do.

Mine is coming up for the 3 year service and I will speak to the dealer pretty carefully before I take it there. I get the first 3 years' servicing free so I have an incentive to take it there, but maybe it's too risky?

M7R wrote:Tax is based on CO2, not Nox, so there would be no grounds to raise tax, plus there is no evidence yet that European cars are actually involved, just rumour and maybes...and if they did somehow come to the conclusion that there had been tax avoidance going on it would be the manufacture who would be fined not the user as the user purchased the vehicle in good faith on the back of verified official witnessed data.

No longer "rumours"!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34345210" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The local VW dealer (Brighton area) told me they have not received any instructions on this, and after I pressed him on this point he said they have no reason to touch the ECU.

Probably I should get my imminent service done before they "receive instructions"

I'm now wondering when they will be forced to cut the prices on petrol Sciroccos

jdizler wrote:

M7R wrote:Tax is based on CO2, not Nox, so there would be no grounds to raise tax, plus there is no evidence yet that European cars are actually involved, just rumour and maybes...and if they did somehow come to the conclusion that there had been tax avoidance going on it would be the manufacture who would be fined not the user as the user purchased the vehicle in good faith on the back of verified official witnessed data.

No longer "rumours"!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34345210" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All fluff so far... There could be 11 million, however as my original post said it depends on the after treatment of gases, and who coded the ECU with what tune, so until we know which engine codes, with which exhaust treatment systems, and which ecu part numbers / calibrations in which actual cars are affected I wouldn't be jumping to too many conclusions yet...as I said before it is not the actual engine it is the calibration loaded into the ecu and the type of exhaust treatment fitted.

Plus this is NOx not CO2, so as before tax in the UK is based on CO2, and it could be that if you ran a test which did not activate the NOx control system you would get Higher MPG and lower CO2 (maybe) but at the expense of NOx... So had it been a valid test with regards to NOx the tax band could have been lower..or it could have been higher as it depends on what else it does,

That is all I will say for now until the hype dies down and some proper hard facts come out of VW as to exactly what engine codes, vehicle models etc have a different cal for the road vs a lab test..

I have a Sept 2010 registered Scirocco GT-TDi 170 DSG, which engines are the EA189? Is mine? How can you tell?

youngyy wrote:I have a Sept 2010 registered Scirocco GT-TDi 170 DSG, which engines are the EA189? Is mine? How can you tell?

Read the past before yours, you can until VW release specifics or issue a recall

Sent from my phone

yes.. E189 is basically the 2.0 TDi EU5 engines, so common rail 110, 140 170 bhp (The newer 150 and 184s are the new E2 something something engine, cba to find the exact number, but basically its a whole new engine and only shares the bore spacing with the Euro 5 engines). This is now also supposedly including the smaller EU5 1.6 TDis too, and one report I have read from the US (I have given up now as there's too much cut and paste reports not understanding the issues!) is stating that the EGR was also played with altering the amount of EGR duty cycle when on the road, as lower EGR cycle can give better throttle response and more power, but it raises combustion temps which is what leads to the higher NOx levels. This is something which if true could be used on the european cars, so the most you may have is a lazy EGR cycle, and that is yet to be proved, and may only be on certain cars depending which "brand" looks after that engine / chassis etc.

Short answer is, don't panic folks until there are some hard facts from VW as to what - IF anything - has been played with in Europe when the vehicles are on the roads, the worse you MAY see is a small drop in MPG (all depends on driving style and that will have a bigger effect I am sure), and possibly a tiny drop in power at certain times, however if you can tell ~5bhp (because that's will be all we are talking about, small figures not 40bhp tahts for sure) on a 140 or 170bhp engine then you are better than me on the arse dyno!