Stage II+

[James321]

I popped in to my local Dubai Revo dealer today and had a chat about options for the car. I was going to go with stage 2 anyway but he said if I'm doing stage 2 I may as well fit the fuel pump and go for stage 2+ as its a totally different beast from 2.

What does he mean exactly by a different beast, the car will still be drivable wont it? I'm going to get the serial port switch so will be able to flick between maps and I intend to get stage 1 as one of the options.

Just how crazy is 2+ ?

[Macman]

You can afford to get it all considering the price of petrol in Dubai. It must be difficult to run well in all that heat and keep the sand out. Your stage 1 would probably run like stock here in the UK. Only hope it can handle the conditions too but it is a tough engine which feeds from revs. They are probably switching to the TFSI next incarnation.

[eMiL-VR6]

Could you explain more about getting the serial port switched?
I would love to have the options to choose between differents map.

[wigit]

depends what your chasing as to go Stage 2 or 2+, less sometimes is actually more

[b0rk]

SPS is a Revo device that allows you to adjust the map, for EA118 K04 TSI/TFI lumps you can adjust boost, timing and fuelling.It looks a looks as per below and plugs into the diagnostics port and a laptop.

photo.JPG

Crank the settings down and the map will approximate "stock", crank the settings up and you can unlock more engine performance. You can store three performance "maps" together with the "stock" map. It's a nice tool but be aware that mindlessly turning the settings up may not deliver any more engine power and could damage the engine. I'd strongly suggest SPS is only used to create "custom" maps if you have the appropriate equipment and more to the point understand how to datalog engine perimeters.

APR and GIAC have similar but different user switching technology available. APR maps can be switched via the cruise control stalk, GIAC have a "flashloader" device.

[wigit]

others don't however give you the adjustability of the three parameters like Revo do, care does need to be exercised if you adjust boost and timing and don't know what you are doing, similarly settings vary between Stage 1, 2 and 2+

on Stage 2 i run Boost 9 or 7 (9 is for number chasing and 7 is for driving), if i'm going somewhere and fuel is not unto Shell V Power I run timing of 4 or instead of 5

[James321]

Ok I'm not chasing figures here, I only wanted a stage 1 REVO but due to it being slightly warmer here I am fitting the EuroJet intercooler, a VWR intake and an exhaust was always going to be fitted so I guess that takes you into stage 2 territory, it was the REVO guy here that said I may as well fit the fuel pump for the little extra it costs and have stage 2 plus.
Yes the maps are adjusted for temperature here, but they have a summer and a winter map, winter temps drop down to 10'C summer temps, well above 50'C isn't unusual.

The car won't go on a rolling road, all the mapping is done on an open road which I would actually prefer. Like I said, I'm not interested in figures, I want a car with a good mid range punch and just wanted to know what the 2+ would be like in comparison to the 2?


Any advice would be great.

[cyman]

the only reason to fit the fuel pump is to hold higher pressure at higher revs when more power is asked for. maps will generally ask for more fuel as the intake temp increases for example if you run in a hot country or do long runs in summer on track days.

my advice would be to get the fuel pump done as a matter of course just purely for the safety of your engine. if you end up doing a track day over there in the heat you may be pushing the standard pump quite heavily. in my mind better safe than sorry.

[wigit]

Revo have been getting better results with the CDL engine on the power delivery and doing some further work which is not quite the finished article

i take the opposite view to cyman as aftermarket fuel pumps are prone to failure, even the ones with added tax, Loba is the new player in this area so will be interesting how theirs perform

for me XDS is a limiting factor for going for more power as it is far from being predicable in terms of how it behaves like a true mechanical lsd, it nearly caught me out in a K04 tsi Roc even with a decent helping of chassis mods

still can't believe some people run Stage 2+ on stock suspension and mounts, the oem mounts must be screaming for mercy

[cyman]

I thought the current fuel pump upgrades were a mod to the oem pump on an exchange basis which is why I would rec it. if it isn't then as long as it is a well known brand like a bosch then there are no reliability issues with them. I ran one in my 500bhp rx7 track car running a much higher than standard base pressure for years and never had an issue.

if you run a higher pressure fuel pump all it will give you is a higher more stable level of flow when it is called for at higher revs and at hotter temps.

[James321]

I thought it was mid range where the standard pump was lacking not top end?

The suspension is already on Bilstein B16 RC soon to be iRC, I am also fitting the SuperAlloy wishbones and VWR dog bone so hopefully I should be ok in the handling department although I am tempted to pop the VWR anti-roll bars in there, well the rear one anyway to try and dial out some of the corner apex understeer I found on the track, if you go in to a corner a bit too quickly the nose will push straight on which I'm sure can be dialled out with a bigger rear anti-roll bar and possibly some more camber at the front *lets see what the super alloy wishbones do with the increased caster*

Do you think the Quaife is worth the investment and back the XDS off for track use?

I really want to reiterate, I'm not a number chaser or boy racer, I'm 42 years old, I like my cars and I put this rocco on the track once a month, I'd love to make this a punchy and neutral handling coupe.

[wigit]

I'm of similar age James and for Stage 2+ would go LSD, I've driven golfs with them and power out of low speed corners is where you just amaze, I'm going to drive Revos k04 roc again when the diff is in, also bigger brakes for 2+

VWR roll bars are made by Eibach, save your self some scene tax and get the latest Eibachs as their stuff works well with the Bilsteins, also a little caution on VWR/Vibratechnic mounts in the roc, I had a subframe mount and when I went coilovers ended up having to upgrade the top two as vibration in cabin was excessive, Chungster fitted my set on his R and hated them and took the top ones off

My 35 project was hatched over coffee with Revo and runs B16s, Eibach ARBs and the best product Revo make is there engine mounts as they got them just right plus the other hardware, best couple of hours was then getting KPM Racing to set the suspension up and adjust the rear toe in, just looking at some Alcons to inish it off

My view is go 2 and if you like it enjoy it, if you want more then diff and pump

On the pump front they are external company upgrades to to the stock pump, autotech is purely internal, APR do some work to pump itself and not sure what Loba is, my issue isn't that they work it's the reliability risk, also know track prepped golf that just grenades camfollowers

In 4 years I've never been in a fwd K04 road car running 2+ that has made me rush out and do it, I know plenty who have thoughtnitna stage to far and one back to 2 as car is more reliable, if I had a Golf R I'd probably have gone 2+ lol

If I run the 35 on track I'd prob run Stage 1 power levels, is someone going to tell me a 240bhp KPM VW Cup Rocco isn't going to be fun

[Chungster]

James...

if you get understeer from going into a corner too quickly, then basically you're just going too far for that corner!

learn the lines instead and the correct speed for each corner, rather than thinking along the lines of fitting bigger ARBs to maybe "dial out" understeer.

I've done plenty of track days in the R and feel its rear end is quite mobile if you want it to be. The throttle pedal as they say is not just an on/off switch - there is a theory that you can modulate it to control the line of the car through a corner.

Have fun!

[Macman]

Chungster, have you tried a DSG on the track (even any other auto FWD)?
Can left foot braking be used or not as good as in manual?
I've tried in D mode but it simply doesn't work in keeping its revs up to exit the corner faster as it would in a manual but perhaps in Sport mode or kick down early?
I also seen the clips of lift off oversteer and the flick which shows its lighter back end (not gonna try!)

[b0rk]

The aftermarket pumps are surely defined by the quality or sometimes lack thereof of the remanufacturing untaken to upgrade the OEM unit. The basic OEM unit is a Hitachi part as per the manufacturers hardstamp on the casing. Personally if I was going for aftermarket pump then I'd be looking for one that is supplied fully built up and manufacturer tested from a new unused OEM pump and not an upgrade kit or a rebuilt used pump. Used factory pumps will have a degree of wear and match wearing to the internals which won't marry against new internals.

My ideal would be higher performance pump that's a proper new bespoke fabrication but I don't think any of the tuners have the resources to develop a new pump and then get it made economically.

I recall that most of established upgrade/remade pump kits have known issues of one form or another, from premature failure to excessive wear of pump internals and/or the cam followers and of course assembly quality issues when supplied as a kit for customer/fitter build up.


Just out of interest is the XDS software identical between different ABS control units? I haven't experienced it getting genuinely inconsistent but I'm slow(ish) into corners preferring the set the car up well before entry, grip circle and all that. Don't get me wrong the system is noticeable with a stg2 map but I can't say it did something unexpected.

How do the Revo mounts compare against VF engineering or THS mounts as I know that the Vibratechnic ones are too extreme for me on a daily.

[James321]

Chungster, yes I'm with you on the corner entry speed, I just feel the situation can be improved upon with a bit of tweaking.
Ok, stage 2 it is, as I said earlier, the exhaust, intake and intercooler were all going in anyway so I think that warrants a stage 2 map? I probably have too much mechanical sympathy to push it any further and would always be concerned I was stressing components too much and would rather not have to go down the road of LSDs and uprating all the engine mounts, this is a daily driver car that covers 900km per week after all.

Thanks for the great advice, I'll get the guys to take some pictures of the install as they are doing it, if you're anything like me I always love looking at pictures of sensible modifications with a bit of a write up so I'll do just that.

[csotropa]

James,

I am currently running a revo stage 2+ rocco r coming from
stage 2. To be completly honest with you I couldn't feel any difference (in power or in the way the car pulls to the red line) between these 2. Therefore I don't think you would be putting too much stress on the engine. I had to replace the dog bone aswell as the milltek exhaust was hitting something under the car due to the engine movement and was making quite an annoying noise. I have just installed the HPA dog bone as this looked the most solid product that would give me the least amout of vibrations. I can really feel the extra vibrations but they aren't really intrusive (or at least I don't perceive them to be). furthermore, people say that the amount of vibrations will decrease with time. therefore I wouldn't spend the extra money on going stage 2+ unless you want to see what are the maximum gains without a turbo kit as i did.

[James321]

Thanks for a very honest post.

[wigit]

in terms of mount harshness

oem
THS (oem with new inserts)
Revo
VWR Vibratechnics

not sure were VF fits in, oddly mounts seem to be more intrusive on roccos than golfs

when my roll bars initially went on and suspension set up the car despite the front being set softer the effect was that the car felt a bit inert at the front and turn in was not that sharp, hence why i got the rear tweaked to give me more play at the rear, all down to personal taste

my roc used to do 10k miles a year and in reality with mounts and V1s it ceased to be the most comfortable daily driver, the E35 isnt my daily but used it today for mile 100 mile commute to London, based on your mileage I'd stick at Stage 2, you can always turn the boost down a bit in daily driving mode if you go Revo and then have some higher settings for when you want to play

[James321]

The beauty of those B16-RC is on normal setting the ride is softer than the standard car, sport mode is great and certainly not too hard for use on the road but it would possibly become tiring after a while. I can't wait for this iRC box to arrive so I can tweak the settings myself.

Going back to your suspension settings Wigit and it not feeling as sharp, what had they set the front toe to initially? That sounds like it was set with too much 'toe in' at the front which would give you a much less sharp feeling turn in but feel very stable in a straight line. Also, have you thought about just having an uprated rear anti-roll bar and going back to a standard bar on the front, that really makes a huge difference with how the car behaves, much improved turn in and reduced understeer. These WALK bushes or the SuperAlloy wishbones look very interesting, I think I'll go for the latter as they reduce unsprung weight too.

Ok so it's definitely going to be stage two only and I'll do a bit of research on the subframe mount so either the THS inset or REVO (thanks for the heads up on those).

The beauty of having this REVO dealer just down the road is he can get parts out here within a week, it may sound daft but finding someone honest about their ability to tune a car and supply parts on time is pretty difficult in these parts, lots of people who will say "yes sir" and leave you waiting, do shoddy work and just flash your ECU with any old nonsense but the owner of the REVO dealer (Park Ferme Workshop) is a thoroughly nice chap called Motaz Abu-Hijleh who used to work for TAM engineering, I've seen the cars he has in his workshop and drooled over the cars he has in storage and trust his ability to carry out the work.

Back to the UK on Sunday so I'll get the air filter on order and bring that back with me.