3 year Service: TDi 140 Costs

[lewis]

Third year service : TDi 140 Diesel

My car nears three years and have just enquired at local VW garage – costs given as follows for those of you who have a similar aged car.

3 year 30,000 miles service: £139.00

MOT: £19.50 (when carried out at time of service)

Air con service and brake fluid change (which were not carried out at 2yr service) £118.00 (combined)

TOTAL: £276.50

I am also having the cam belt replaced at the same time (although according to VW this is not due for change until year 4 or 40,000 miles.)
Cost: £339.00

• The reason for the cam belt replacement is that on a previous car (VW Golf) the belt broke between year three and year four with calamitous results – and of course out of warranty.

• This time I considered the extended one year warranty – but I doubt that it would cover a broken cam belt (and the resultant damage it causes)
• Once it has happened – it makes a feeling of acute vulnerability ! and a hell of a dent in the bank balance.

Jeff

[Massipet]

Surely 4 year or 40,000 miles cannot be right for a Cam belt change. Better check my service schedule. Havent had the car that long so haven't looked at that but it seems at least a year or 20000 miles to early.

[RW1]

Surely 4 year or 40,000 miles cannot be right for a Cam belt change. Better check my service schedule. Havent had the car that long so haven't looked at that but it seems at least a year or 20000 miles to early.

Officially for Common Rail Diesels, its 180,000 Km/112,500miles - no time limit for 2008 - 2009; 210,000Km/131,250 miles - no time limit from 2010 onwards. (There are two world markets where the belt is changed earlier at 120,000Km/75,000 miles - no time limit, namely Russia and China.)

The only "belted" petrol engine is the Scirocco R as they use an older engine design. That is rated as 180,000 Km/112,500miles - no time limit.

[The older PD Diesel engine (not Scirocco) are 150,000Km/93,750 miles.
TFSi petrol engines (not in Scirocco) are 180,000Km/112,500miles - no time limits
Its 90,000Km/56,250 miles - no time limits for even older VW petrol/diesel 4 cylinder engines.]

With "no time" limits its sensible to start an annual inspection regime after 5 years at the service to determine the condition of the cam belt, particularly if low annual mileage.

C.

[Massipet]

Thanks for the info RW1.

[lewis]

I take note of the comment from RW1 - However,for those of you who remain sceptical about the correct time or mileage that the Cam Belt should be changed – I strongly suggest that you type into Google (or whatever search-engine)

1. VW Cam Belt change
2. VW Cam Belt problems.

I think you will be surprised that most VW Garages on the various sites recommend change at 4 years ! (almost regardless of mileage – certainly my local VW garage does)

You will also note the comments from ‘those’ who did not change the belt before it was too late.

As with any such wearing part – there is NO-ONE who can be totally accurate. It is not just mileage which reflects the need to change – as other elements also affect the actual material of the belt.

Imagine travelling down the motorway at a steady 70mph – and the belt breaks – believe me that simply crossing your fingers and closing your eyes will do little to help.

The belt on my previous Golf broke (between year three and four) on a dual-carriageway whilst driving at 60 mph with (thankfully) nothing behind.

Perhaps you may now understand just why I intend replacing the belt during a reasonable/safe period.

Jeff

[Massipet]

Hi Lewis. Completely understand what you are saying. I wasn't trying to say you were wrong for changing it I was just a little surprised by the time and mileage that VW were telling you. This was only based on my history of a number of VW's and Audis which have typically been around 5 years or 80000 miles. I appreciate if I had experienced a cam belt going between year 3 and 4 my views would probably be different.

[lewis]

Hi Massipet

No problem. This is after-all a forum where members exchange views, ideas and matters of interest about their car.

It should not be in any-way dogmatic – nor even autocratic – I certainly was not recommending that members MUST change their cam belt at year three. That remains a matter for the individual owner.

I understand that as our car(s) near three years - VW contacts the owner and offers the extended warranty (for a limited time and mileage) – although, I have as yet not received any correspondence thus far – and my car will be three years old on the 1st July.

Nevertheless, I also understand from the information on the Web that the extended warranty DOES NOT cover the cam belt (I await confirmation)

That in itself reduces confidence in ‘the working life’ of the belt – and makes the figures offered by RW1 a little difficult to comprehend.

Furthermore, it is also my understanding that the fitment of the new belt (to be fitted at the time of service) – is only covered for TWO YEARS after fitment !

Jeff

[RW1]

I understand that as our car(s) near three years - VW contacts the owner and offers the extended warranty (for a limited time and mileage) – although, I have as yet not received any correspondence thus far – and my car will be three years old on the 1st July.

Jeff,

It will arrive during the last 2 weeks of June.

Nevertheless, I also understand from the information on the Web that the extended warranty DOES NOT cover the cam belt (I await confirmation)

Timing belts
Timing belts and tensioners are covered providing that the last due change has taken place
as specified by the manufacturer’s schedule (proof required). Damage subsequently caused
if timing belt has not been changed as specified by the manufacturer is specifically excluded.

Their policy booklet - November 2011. Unless it has changed very recently.


The ContiTech belt "life" for the Common Rail diesels as per Scirocco is actually 240,000Km so even VW are playing safe (Ref'd from the Maintenance Manual.)

But as I have experienced, belts do fail early and in many different ways. So for peace of mind, you do it when you feel it needs to be done. What I illustrated in my first post really is how the belt "life" is improving. The harsh condition limits for the Russian/Chinese change regimes of the Common Rail Diesel are the ones to note.

There is more things than mileage or time that lifes a belt. They are around sudden change in the engine rpm, not accelrating with engine under load but more to do with where it stresses most.

One is blipping the throttle while slipping the clutch such reversing manoeuvres/moving forward slowly.
And two, engine starting as thats strains the belt a lot as the bottom of the engine (crank) starts to drive the camshafts. Camshafts don't spin easily.

I just wonder how much is based on the old 1980's engine change of 4 years/60,000 miles when design has moved on with the PD diesel engine being 93,750 miles and the CR (Scirocco) being 112,500 - 131,250 miles. VW is doing something with belt manufacturers such as ContiTech to get a longer service life. Which why I put up the info to illustrate with the previso of 5 years on inspection.

But a belt giving trouble can be more than one form of failure as I found out with my last daily driver. Hit the motorway at 70mph, on came the alternator light which I knew meant the alternator belt had gone, confirmed by the bang sound out of the engine bay. Coasted to a halt, whipped out a new belt from the boot and got it on the engine. Drove off.

An hour later, called for some petrol. When I came to re-start the engine.... nothing, just spinning on the starter. End up being towed home. Next day, took a look around and found that the outer tape layer of the alternator belt had ended up round the camshaft sprocket wheel driveshaft with its tail across the sprockets. This was fine when the engine was running but on re-starting, the timing belt preferred to slip over the sprockets rather than turn the camshaft. And as you can guess, all got out of sequence. Fortunately this particular engine didn't kiss valves and pistons, so just removed the tape and re-timed the engine top and bottom.

Not an unknown type of event apparently. So the world is never perfect, even if its a VW.

C.

[lewis]

There seems to be an amount of speculation or even confusion regarding the ‘exact’ time to change the cam belt.

In order to dispel such debate I contacted VW direct at Milton Keynes.

THE OFFICIAL RECCOMENDED time to change the belt is :

140,000 miles

Or

4 years – whichever comes sooner ! (regardless of mileage)

To give an extraordinary figure of 140,000 miles – or at 4 years - when the mileage of the car may only be in the region of 40,000 miles seems to be almost comical.

I do however, understand that the belt can deteriorate in many different ways – as outlined by RW1 in his previous post.

Nevertheless, to leave the matter until year 5 (RW1 previous post)and then start an inspection of the belt – seems a little perilous.

I doubt that many owners have the technical ability of removing a number of parts from the engine in order to examine the belt. How many will be able to see a hair-line crack – or even that the belt has in fact stretched.

If however, the owner asks VW to conduct ‘an inspection’ at the time of service (year 5) – then to remove all the necessary parts will simply incur a huge amount of labour costs AND I further doubt that any VW technician would examine the belt – AND THEN replace the same belt - beyond its recommended change period.

How would their liability stand in such failure after even a few miles ?

So, RW1 provides the unique answer :

“to change the belt when you feel it needs to be done” (unquote)

Jeff

[lewis]

When considering the above costs I gave for service, MOT etc – it must be noted that not only were the Air con and Brake fluid costing subject to a ‘Promotional Offer’ – BUT the cam belt change was ALSO offered on a similar ‘Promotional Offer’.

Cam belt change -‘Current Promotional Offer’:£339.00

Actual price (without promotion) £508.12

Consequently, - and perhaps not surprisingly, I took these quite considerable variables into account when deciding to change the belt at the 3rd year service.

Jeff

[Cuprabob]

If you look on the VW website you will see that the fixed price for a cambelt change without water pump is £339. These prices are not a promotion.

http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/serv ... -servicing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think they just made up the £508.12 figure.

[lewis]

Confirmation of Service, air con & brake fluid change promotion & mot for Thursday 29th at our durham branch Q £276.50inc

would you require alternative transport. The cambelt is also on a promotion at present :-

Cambelt £508.12 promotional cost £339

Cambelt including water pump £636.28 promotional cost £419 all fully inclusive of parts labour and vat



If you wish to proceed the cambelt with or without the water pump just let me know and i will add it to the booking.


I can only quote what the VW dealer provides - perhaps the web link you provide - also gives the VW 'promotional costing' ! at the CURRENT time.



kind regards

[lewis]

Cuprabob

It is noted that the site and link you submit - gives the price for the cam belt replacement - with the proviso - that the price is ONLY CURRENT UNTIL 30th June 2012 !

[Cuprabob]

As long as your happy that's all that matters.

I take your point with the 30th June 2012 date but the fixed prices have been running for several years now and no doubt will continue to do so after 30th June.

[lewis]

Cuprabob:

Being ‘happy’ is almost irrelevant – I require a service – and perhaps ‘debatably’ a new cam belt.

Yes, I believed my local VW garage that the price offered was ‘’promotional’ .

My car is booked in for the 29th June – one day before the offer purportedly may expire – BUT to dismiss or deliberately ignore the possible closure date would be both irresponsible (to my bank balance) and moreover irrational.

I presume that VW have their reason to be so specific about a (possible) closure date for the offer.

Whether or not the ‘offer’ is extended remains to be seen.

Jeff

[Cuprabob]

I fully accept your point and of course you're right they may not decide to continue it after the 30th June even although they have done so with all previous dates.

To be fair when they do extend the date they do tend to put the price up slightly therefore of course you done the right thing.

I hope it all goes well for you

[lewis]

Cuprabob:

Many thanks

I hope that my bank manager will approve too........

Regards

Jeff

[voyager]

It is not just cam BELTS that fail, I had a cam CHAIN snap on a Nissan Primera sport at 66k miles while driving along the A1 which destroyed the engine. Later research with a number of Nissan dealers demonstrated that 'this should not happen' and even Nissan customer services were 'extremely surprised' but Nissan were completely unwilling to replace the engine under their extended warranty or even make a contribution. I took legal advice but the solicitors view was that even though I may have a case, taking on a company like Nissan could take many months and if unsuccessful would likely cost more than the £4.5k they wanted to replace the engine, so I simply stripped all the useful parts from the car (inc wheels and tyres) and dumped the shell on the dealers forecourt one dark Sunday night courtesy of a friend who had a lorry with a crane attached. Needless to say I heard nothing from said dealer. Consequently I now always ask dealers to check the cam belt/chain during every service so that I at least have written proof that said item has been regularly checked should I ever have need to prove it.

[lewis]

Voyager:

I love your brutal (but humorous) attitude to the motor trade. At the very least Nissan could have provided the parts at discounted rate – which would have actually cost them nothing.
In doing so they would no doubt have created a greater ‘customer relationship’ – which these companies are frequently claiming is their aim !

In my case the car was a little over three years with approx. 36,000 miles – but I was perhaps more fortunate insomuch as my daughter’s boyfriend was a highly qualified Audi technician – who not only provided the labour and technical skill (on the strict understanding that I stopped calling him a ‘mechanic’) – but also was able to buy the necessary parts at trade.

The ‘official’ figure(s) presented by VW (and no doubt other manufacturers) for the mileage expectancy of the belt (140,000) is certainly disproportionate to that which appears to remain within a safety margin.

That in itself gives an almost false sense of security to the owner.

Furthermore,If the mileage is within the ‘projected ‘ limit –then why does VW not cover the belt during the extended warranty period between year 3 and year 4 ?

How many owners will take out the extended warranty in the false belief that the belt will be covered.

[Fifer]

And two, engine starting as thats strains the belt a lot as the bottom of the engine (crank) starts to drive the camshafts. Camshafts don't spin easily.

As an owner of a BMT with stop/start technology, that's a bit of a concern. I was already surprised today to find that the belt change is recommended at 4 years. I'm now wondering if the BMT should be sooner.

I had a cam belt snap it a Peugeot 306 GTI6 which stranded me in the outside lane of the M8 in Glasgow and left me with a £1500 repair (and that was at 15ish year ago prices). I ended up paying for the parts (including new underwear) and Peugeot paid the labour.