Scirocco Central

Hi there,

I am a newbie and thrilled to have found a great forum. This is my first post but my second Scirocco. I had an original Mk1 1600 many years ago - wish I still had it, but now have a 2010 TDI 170 GT with the DSG box. Wondeful car!!!..... bloody quick but one thing I have noticed is that when you start the car from cold, there is tappet noise for 3 - 20 seconds depending on how long the car has been left. This is as a result of one of the hydraulic tappets bleeding down overnight, normal according to VW, and I wondered if anybody else has had this problem. It is a metallic ticking straight after starting the car that goes silent after a few seconds or so.

Thoughts welcome!

I get a single metalic "Ting" sound from the engine when its starts up I asked VW dealer to look at it but they say its normal

Thanks for the reply fella! I get the impression that a few noises are normal for these engines when cold. I have only just got mine - almost identical to yours by the sound of it. How do you like it?

Fluff wrote: but one thing I have noticed is that when you start the car from cold, there is tappet noise for 3 - 20 seconds depending on how long the car has been left.

How long since the last oil change?

Hydraulic tappets are the bain of VW engines.
Here's a cure......

http://www.forteuk.co.uk/product.php?id ... otor_Flush" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.commaoil.com/productsguide/view/6/314" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't bother with other flushes, been there and got the badges

Drop in either of these with the old oil.
Run round for about 50 to 100 miles as normal.
Drop the oil out, refill and change the filter.

It should go.
It doesn't usually happen with low mileage engines and modern oil but there is always the exception.

C.

Hello! Thanks very much for the advice. The car has done 15K and I have only just acquired it from VW as approved used, so it has just been serviced. They done use flushes normally. They are adamant that it is normal, and a characteristic of the engine. As a result there is notghing to fix in there view.

Cheers,
S.

VW's attitude to the ticking is to run the engine for 20 mins at 2,000 rpm to clear the hydraulic tappet valve. In practice that doesn't work.

Still put 50% of the one of the above additive in and leave it in.

If it still ticks, then it needs a new hydaulic tappet.

C.

Fluff wrote:Thanks for the reply fella! I get the impression that a few noises are normal for these engines when cold. I have only just got mine - almost identical to yours by the sound of it. How do you like it?

I love the car it will be 2 years old on March 13th and i've driven 55,000 miles it it so far. I cant Fault it

My TDI 170 has started to make the same noise from stone cold first thing in the morning. Sounds like a valve lifter thats slow to pressure up, its only done 9000 miles should not need a flush. I work as a mechanic and our franchise has a vw dealership so i will ask the lads in the workshop if they have had any issues or there is any tech bulletins.

Its not about an oil flush per say. Its a hydraulic tappet blocked. Had one on a Mk2 Scirocco engine at 5,000 miles. Put the above in and it never re-appeared. No bulletin. They just get blocked sometimes.

C.

mr_patrick_bateman wrote:My TDI 170 has started to make the same noise from stone cold first thing in the morning. Sounds like a valve lifter thats slow to pressure up, its only done 9000 miles should not need a flush. I work as a mechanic and our franchise has a vw dealership so i will ask the lads in the workshop if they have had any issues or there is any tech bulletins.

Thatr's it exactly, same as mine and mine has done 14.5K. Mine has been at the dealership for the last few days. They brought in another Scirocco TDI 170, same age and miles, for direct comparison from cold and said both made the same noise for a few seconds as I had described. Their stance is that it is a charactersitic of the engine and that flushing or replacement won't change it. The technician I spoke to was very frank about it and said he had never had to replace tappets in 25 years at VW and that he would have no problem doing it under warranty if there was a fault.

I'd be very interested in hearing what the lads in your workshop have to say about it I must admit. It does seem fairly common then, if that provides some reassurance (?)

Spoke to them this morning and they said it was common due to the oil being thin and draining down from the head easily, there are no tech bulletins on it. The earlier pd engines where worse for it. Saying that i have changed a few faulty pd injectors on skoda ovtavia vrs 170s an the cylinder heads always seem quite dry of oil, As long as it hits the wright oil pressure there is not a lot you can do. I think it would be the same with new tappets.

Well that does make sense, and does fit what I was told. Small irritataion for a such a great car!

Its a very interesting answer !

Hydraulic Tappets do not leak oil unless there is something holding open the ball bearing valve.
The area below the ball bearing holds the pressured oil using the seated ball bearing valve so there isn't a tap noise on start up. If dirt (combustion products washed into the sump or swarf) ends up being trapped on the ball bearing valve seat, the oil leaks back. It happens early on due to the piston rings not being fully bedded in or when oil is really dirty or the rings start to be come worn in higher mileage engines. As they state "The non-return valve serves as a means of filling and sealing the high pressure chamber."

The orange area is engine oil pump fed oil pressure. The tappet tops up pressure as and when it needs it (ie. wear/temperature adjustment). In practice that is a very litlle, not very often.

A normal tappet only taps like this on first fitment when its priming. After that, it remains pressurised.

Are you sure that the noise is tappets, not the diesel fuel injectors? The fuel injectors are positioned in between hydraulic tappets so the sound source area is the same. They have pressurised damping, ie "equiped with a retraction plunger brake". This would initially take time (2 - 3 seconds) for the residual diesel fuel pressure to build up to maximum working pressure.
C.

Crikey! where did you get all that? I'm impressed! Well to be honest, I had assumed it was the tappets as the sound is similar to noisy tappets I had donkeys years ago. Could be what you suggest, is about 2-3 seconds of tapping and then goes silent......

The more it got described here, the more it got me thinking...... a cam hydraulic tappet can be a few seconds or go on for much longer if the ball valve has dirt on it. Your consistant timing triggered a thought....

The 140PS doesn't use the same exact injector as the 170PS.

There are no injector bulletins per say on start up for the 170PS (or 140PS)

They are from VW technical training manuals. Some are publically available here. Link There is a later one that this but its not available on the www publically as far as I know. It doesn't go into the detail of the tappets and injectors so one can assume its similar on the Common Rail Diesels in the Scirocco.

This is the TDi 140PS engine but is good enough for the 170PS generally.

C.

Ah...now that is interesting. My missus has a 140ps Golf, and that doesn't make the noise at all. Maybe this supports the notion that it is the injectors on the 170ps engine afterall and explains why two of us here have noticed the same thing. Fascinating discussion I must say!

intresting info about the tappets, i am sure its a tappet noise and not a injector, looking at my 170 it has piezo injectors not the pd ones in the pic above so they would not be noisey from start up when building pressure. Think its worth chucking a flush in on first service, could be swarf. Mines stopped doing it now though!

Probably right as the 170PS injectors are 3db down on noise, which is a factor of 2 down on the PD engine injectors.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And found a copy abeit its VW(USA), but the same as the European Training manual for the CR engine.
TDi 2.0Ltr CRail

C.

Absolutely fascinating feed! Albeit I am a little late to post!...

I too have a Scirocco 170PS and it also makes the single metallic tapping noise when started in the cold. It is reassuring from my point of view that other people have the same issue!

(Also my first post ..)

so adding 50% of either of these oil flush additives and leaving it in wont do any harm ? (i just did a oil and filter change to help the dreaded tappet noise when cold) mine only lasts maybe a minute then its quiet but dont like the sound on a cold morning.
thanks in advance