Engine Problem

[johno]

Latest update....they have put a scope through the engine....has a burr??? So flying out a new engine from the factory. With only 7000 kms on it, they have admitted defeat and replacing. Getting there.......keep you updated.

Have vw offerded you any form of compensation mate ? 7000kms and a knackered engine on a 20k premium brand car is not really acceptable is it ! ?

No Dave, not a mention of compensation, only that I could trade in and pay for a larger 2l 147kW model! Which I laughted at....paid 53k already and they want more money from me

[gio_italy]

I don't really want to make things look worse than what they really are, don't even sure that an issue really exists. Anyway, I forgot to mention that VW Australia issued a service campaign for the 1.4 160hp tsi back in May. More info here:

http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/news-a ... si_warning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and here:

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f112/go ... 44540.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This seems to be fuel related and may be a completely different problem. Don't really know.

[RW1]

There are several variations on the 1.4 TSi problem, nothings singular either, take your choice .............

1) Faulty coil packs.
- Early Coil Packs which are not reliable replaced with units as per later standard fitted from mid 2009 onwards.
- Faulty batch of Coil Packs in Wk35/09.

2) Misfires - Injector part changed from Mar'10 onwards in production. To aid spray pattern and over come deposits restricting fuelling.

3) Misfires - Injector batch in last quarter of 2009 to be replaced on occurrence.

4) Misfires generally (carboning of cylinders and injectors) - ECU software updates for fuelling problems (Australia issue mentioned above ie. software G5859/G5860).

5) Warm-up misfires with low humidity & higher temperature present - ECU software fix expected soon

6) Erratic running with EG warning lamp - Stretching of cam timing chain at mileages above 20,000Km and some need for heat insulation on an oil feed pipe to the turbo plus other checks.

7) Mechanical free play in the engine leading to piston/ring failure.

8 ) Fuel rating/brand link

I've read through here,

The German counterpart of this forum lists a dozen or so broken twinchargers as well ( http://www.iroc-forum.de/showthread.php?tid=9964" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

Most only report a fault(s), ie. misfires/loss of compression, not the cause. One remark is made about the new replacement engine not making noises like the old one.

http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/liste-al ... 83186.html

Reports both mechanical freeplay in the engine and piston/ring or just piston/ring failure, more occurrances of the latter.


The point about the misfires is that in cases above 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5; it leads to fuel washing the lubricating oil from cylinder walls. Left long term this leads to the piston rings failing in the affected cylinder. And therefore loss of compression.

The misfires are not always apparent to the driver, they don't always switch on the dash EG lamp and don't always log a fault code in the engine ECU.

6 is different in that valve timing gets out of synch.

Some of the problem is coil packs failing (nothing new there with VW if you know Golf Mk4's & 5's), others its the injectors becoming blocked with carbon and other deposits and not spraying the fuel properly into the cylinder or the right quantity.

VW's solution for some time has been to change the ECU software. Current Scirocco engine ECU software (7th release) is identified as G5859 or G5860 (this is also the Australian update). This can be seen in the "Component" field on the Engine ECU screen in VCDS. This software changes during the warm-up phase the way the electric throttle works and limits the throttle opening to 70%ish until above a 5,000 rpm. It also changes the amount of fuelling as various stages of engine operation to compensate for the injector shortcomings to ensure combustion happens.

In the case of 5., there are engines that experience poor running and misfires when the humidity drops below 20% at certain temperatures. This happens when the engine is warming up with the coolant at about 35'C, ie. 2 to 4 minutes from cold starting the engine. This fault is still open with VW and there is no fix at present. The fix will be another ECU software update.

C.

[david25]

Hi david25, all

First, I don't speak German and I had to rely on Google Translate to help me track the issue:-).

That said, I didn't see any mentions to decentered pistons. It seems to me that on iroc-forum.de and motor-talk.de the injectors are blamed as the root cause. Basically, the idea is:
the injectors get more and more clogged, this in turn increases the number of misfirings leaving some fuel inside the combustion chamber. As a result the oil film is progressively washed away wearing the piston rings.

On the other hand, my fellow Italian scirocco owners tend to think that in order to meet the euro 5 emission regulations Volkswagen forced the engine to run too lean. This would rise the temps inside the compression chamber ultimately damaging the cylinder. This would explain why the old 1.4 tsi 140&170hp versions were unaffected by this issue.

Let me say that AFAIK these are just speculations and are not really substantiated by hard facts (read: vw did not provide any sort of confirmation).

Thanks Gio, on Monday I will ask a German speaking colleague to find the motor-talk post which talks about crankshaft bearings. I've always used RON99 Shell fuel is a further suprise if the problem is related to injectors.

I did find another German post which claimed one of the ECU updates did increase fuelling to protect the engine components (valves etc) the downside being increased fuel consumption!

Lastly, please can you post the URL for the Italian forum.

Thanks

[gio_italy]

Lastly, please can you post the URL for the Italian forum.

Sure,
this is the engine section at vwgolfcommunity.com:

http://www.vwgolfcommunity.com/vbulleti ... -f112.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The top sticky discussion reports some failures. There is also the following very long thread about 1.4 160 issues/flaws:

http://www.vwgolfcommunity.com/vbulleti ... 15144.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and this is the engine problems section at sciroccoitalia.com

http://scirocco.forumfree.it/?f=7134342" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the very first threads are all about the problems we are discussing here.
Btw, the above discussions are full of unsubstantiated claims, angry people and, in general, are a bit of a mess.


Thanks RW1 for the sum up! Do you happen to work at a VW dealer?

Cases 1,2,3,4 and 5 are probably 1.4 160 specific but 6,7 and 7 could potentially affect other 1.4 versions as well (at least under the assumption that the 140, 160, and 170 versions all share the same design and components, which may not be the case). However I have never heard of serious faults on the old 140 and 170hp golf gk5s.

Moreover, is it right to assume that one would observe a drop in the oil level if the number of misfires is exceedengly high?


@John: The 2.0l engine seems more reliable. That said, maybe only a small percentage of the 1.4 are experiencing problems, and hopefully the various issues will be quickly addressed by Volkswagen. Actually, according to the previous post by RW1 some of them have already been addressed.

The whole situation is certainly somewhat depressing and disheartening.

[RW1]

Btw, the above discussions are full of unsubstantiated claims, angry people and, in general, are a bit of a mess.

Which why I listed it all out last night.

Thanks RW1 for the sum up! Do you happen to work at a VW dealer?

Well sort of, several.

Cases 1,2,3,4 and 5 are probably 1.4 160 specific

Agree.

but 6,7 and 7 could potentially affect other 1.4 versions as well

Perhaps will spend some time later today and see what is specific to the 122ps engine in the Scirocco.

However I have never heard of serious faults on the old 140 and 170hp golf gk5s.

Different engine management regime.

However I have never heard of serious faults on the old 140 and 170hp golf gk5s

Was looking at a 140 1.4TSi Golf yesterday with problems but not fully certain they are related to this issue. The fault on the car engine is the same. Misfiring, EG lamp on, running rough, no faults registered.

Moreover, is it right to assume that one would observe a drop in the oil level if the number of misfires is exceedengly high?

I would expect it with broken rings but there's no evidence of it that I've read. Expect strong petrol smelling sump oil.

C.

[david25]

Hi david25, all

First, I don't speak German and I had to rely on Google Translate to help me track the issue:-).

That said, I didn't see any mentions to decentered pistons. It seems to me that on iroc-forum.de and motor-talk.de the injectors are blamed as the root cause. Basically, the idea is:
the injectors get more and more clogged, this in turn increases the number of misfirings leaving some fuel inside the combustion chamber. As a result the oil film is progressively washed away wearing the piston rings.

On the other hand, my fellow Italian scirocco owners tend to think that in order to meet the euro 5 emission regulations Volkswagen forced the engine to run too lean. This would rise the temps inside the compression chamber ultimately damaging the cylinder. This would explain why the old 1.4 tsi 140&170hp versions were unaffected by this issue.

Let me say that AFAIK these are just speculations and are not really substantiated by hard facts (read: vw did not provide any sort of confirmation).

Hi Gio,

John here, I started the discussion, and as stated VW New Zealand are now going to replace the engine, a 1.4 118kW. Should I push for another size engine?

Well, I'm now looking at the 2.0 TSI and CR-TDI units!

I had a look for problems with the 2.0 210 PS unit and couldn't find any big problems likle the failures we are seeing with the 1.4, unless anyone would care to name them?

[RW1]

I think it would fair to say here....

Whilst some people are having 1.4 engine problems, not all are, as there are a fair few 1.4 engines working fine, even inside the faulty component specified periods.

What people should be aware of is:.....
- To do the latest software updates at the next service (which a dealer should do as part of a service but ask them when its being booked in).
- Don't drive around with the engine if it is misfiring even without an Exhaust Gas warning light on. Take it in for a check immediately. The latest software update may be enough to solve.
- Do take it into the dealers immediately if the Exhaust Gas lamp comes on, even it it is only for a short period and goes out again. (if the EG lamp has come on, there will be fault codes to be examined.)

It is unfortunate what is happening to a few in proportion to the total sales of the engine variant. I hope the compensation side gets sorted. VW have done it in the past. Corrado G60 owners used to got full cost paid in the 1st year (about £4,500 in 1988 - 1992) and pro-rata over the following 5 years when G60 Supercharger blew up. But warranty was a little bit different in those days and the £4,500 was the engine repair costs. It never really heals the feelings when your pride and joy has failed just after delivery.

C.

[david25]

Firstly, thank you RW1 for bring balanced to the picture. VW have made 500,000+ of the 1.4 engine ( http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/news-a ... si_warning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
and only a tiny number have made there way online to this and other forums.

However, my objective analysis is dented by the perception of problems with this engine which you very usefully list out;

1) Faulty coil packs.
2) Misfires - Injector part changed from Mar'10 onwards in production. To aid spray pattern and over come deposits restricting fuelling.
3) Misfires - Injector batch in last quarter of 2009 to be replaced on occurrence.
4) Misfires generally (carboning of cylinders and injectors) - ECU software updates for fuelling problems (Australia issue mentioned above ie. software G5859/G5860).
5) Warm-up misfires with low humidity & higher temperature present - ECU software fix expected soon
6) Erratic running with EG warning lamp - Stretching of cam timing chain at mileages above 20,000Km and some need for heat insulation on an oil feed pipe to the turbo plus other checks.
7) Mechanical free play in the engine leading to piston/ring failure.
8 ) Fuel rating/brand
9) The guy in Greece with problems on his second engine ( http://www.sciroccocentral.co.uk/forum/ ... f=2&t=6425" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) (one off I know!)

After completing over 300,000 trouble free miles (engine perspective) in other Golf's and Polo's I think this engine needed more development before it's release, so I'm seriously considering changing and I've written to Chris Craft seeking his opinion of the situation.

[johno]

Well stated David.
it may be that it is isolated to a particular run of engines.....lets hope so!
Still even with a replacement 1.4 I'm not feeling confident about them, as once off warrrenty, what then, heaps of hours off the road and heaps of expense. Finding it ironic that it is the ''engine of the year'' yet again.
For me its about enjoying the driving experience, that's why i paid the bucks i did, not wondering every time i leave home, will it play up and sound like sh...t! The mechanics at vw have been great, they are as frustrated as me, its the sales staff i need to fine a better solution with, as they push the cheapest option for them, which is not neccessarily t, ie trade in and pay the difference to get into the 2.0l!

[david25]

Well stated David.
it may be that it is isolated to a particular run of engines.....lets hope so!
Still even with a replacement 1.4 I'm not feeling confident about them, as once off warrrenty, what then, heaps of hours off the road and heaps of expense. Finding it ironic that it is the ''engine of the year'' yet again.
For me its about enjoying the driving experience, that's why i paid the bucks i did, not wondering every time i leave home, will it play up and sound like sh...t! The mechanics at vw have been great, they are as frustrated as me, its the sales staff i need to fine a better solution with, as they push the cheapest option for them, which is not neccessarily t, ie trade in and pay the difference to get into the 2.0l!

Yes, this would be my point if/when VW contact me. You have replaced the engine, but what about the other possible problems I could have in/out of warranty (and the hassle factor of being off the road)?

Whatever happens this car is definately going before the warranty expires!

[gio_italy]

Hi John, David, Chris and others

After completing over 300,000 trouble free miles (engine perspective) in other Golf's and Polo's I think this engine needed more development before it's release, so I'm seriously considering changing and I've written to Chris Craft seeking his opinion of the situation.

The 1.4 tsi twincharger has been in production since 2006, and commercially available in different powers from 140 to 180 hp. However only the 160 hp variant appears to have an abnormal failure rate. This, together with the list posted by RW1 (thanks!), would point to 1-5 and 8 as being the likely main culprits for those failures. Fortunately 1-5,8 are also easy/cheap to fix.
I would definitely rule out a design flaw with this engine. Moreover, I am confident that things will get clearer with time and hopefully by the time the warranty expires everything will be ok. At least I hope so :-)

I was also wondering what an owner could do to take care of the engine. Specifically I was thinking of switching from the long-life/variable interval service regime to the standard 1year/15.000km fixed interval service regime. Non long-life oils should be less thin and supposedly less prone to be washed away.
Moreover, frequent changes should be a guarantee that the oil is always in good condition. This is particularly true if you use your car in "heavy conditions" (city, short trips). Btw this is also what Volkswagen suggests (last page here: http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/assets/comm ... vicing.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
What do you think?

Finally, a link that may be of some interest:
http://www.michaelneuhaus.de/scirocco/s ... obleme.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(taken from sciroccoitalia.com)

gio_italy

[RW1]

4) Misfires generally (carboning of cylinders and injectors) - ECU software updates for fuelling problems (Australia issue mentioned above ie. software G5859/G5860). C.

The "Workshop Campaign" to update engine ECU's has started which is known as 24S4 which was first conducted in Australia. The bulletin (Tech Product Info leaflet) was issued in Europe 28th Sept. This is not a recall. Much like other campaigns such as the Scirocco rusty tailgate strut bolts last year.

The instruction is for the technician to update the 1.4TSi 160PS ECU software at the next workshop visit and a sticker fitted in the boot by the spare wheel well. The bulletin instructs to inform you by letter of the Workshop Campaign.

The update is a flash programming of the engine ECU only.
Interestingly, VW recognise mapped ECU's and the dealer is asked to enquire if the car has a tuned ECU. They have specific instructions regarding compatibility which the customer needs to consult the tuning company.

Not all 1.4's are affected. I guess one area is those 1.4TSi's engines fitted soon after week 12/2010 when the software standard was generally released on production cars. The update affects all 1.4's across VW's range, ie. Scirocco, Golfs, Jetta, Touran, Tiguan & Eos.

One visible effect will be the gearchange indicator appearing in the MFD for cars with manual gearboxes. It cannot be switched off when 24S4 is flashed into the ECU.

C.

[davo160]

4) Misfires generally (carboning of cylinders and injectors) - ECU software updates for fuelling problems (Australia issue mentioned above ie. software G5859/G5860). C.

The "Workshop Campaign" to update engine ECU's has started which is known as 24S4 which was first conducted in Australia. The bulletin (Tech Product Info leaflet) was issued in Europe 28th Sept. This is not a recall. Much like other campaigns such as the Scirocco rusty tailgate strut bolts last year.

The instruction is for the technician to update the 1.4TSi 160PS ECU software at the next workshop visit and a sticker fitted in the boot by the spare wheel well. The bulletin instructs to inform you by letter of the Workshop Campaign.

The update is a flash programming of the engine ECU only.
Interestingly, VW recognise mapped ECU's and the dealer is asked to enquire if the car has a tuned ECU. They have specific instructions regarding compatibility which the customer needs to consult the tuning company.

Not all 1.4's are affected. I guess one area is those 1.4TSi's engines fitted soon after week 12/2010 when the software standard was generally released on production cars. The update affects all 1.4's across VW's range, ie. Scirocco, Golfs, Jetta, Touran, Tiguan & Eos.

One visible effect will be the gearchange indicator appearing in the MFD for cars with manual gearboxes. It cannot be switched off when 24S4 is flashed into the ECU.

C.

I had this update done on mine at the same time as new injectors but did not make any difference mine was a coil problem changed coils and plugs and seems fine now so far .

[shiman]

Seems that the Chinese users who has 1.4TSI Scirocco got the similar problems what you are talking about here. Many 1.4 engines have been replaced with new one after serious problem happened.So, the problem of 1.4TSI is the global issue which should be fixed by VW ASAP. Currently, Chinese customers still don't get the official announcement from VW what the root cause is. We only got the feedback from dealer that it is caused by oil quality. From Apr 2010, dealer asked to update ECU to tune the injector to fix the current problems. But we still are not confidence about this solution. How about off the warranty? Due to limited police in China, VM will never compensate to costumers.

[johno]

stay away from 1.4 engine. Nothing but problems, take it from me.

[maisbitt]

The original 170PS units in the MK5 Golf weren't 1/2 as troublesome as the other newer variants appear to be.

[david25]

The original 170PS units in the MK5 Golf weren't 1/2 as troublesome as the other newer variants appear to be.

Euro 4 versus Euro 5 perhaps?

[RW1]

Euro 4 versus Euro 5 perhaps?

Exactly that, its running very lean. But besides coil packs failing, the Knock sensor is not operating correctly in the engine ECU coding. I logged on Saturday some data which showed on light throttle the ignition/fuel and knock sensor getting confused. This is known to VW. I run G4009 standard of software in the ECU (factory loaded May 2009 - April 2010) at the moment. When I get 24s4 update on Thursday, G5860 (G5859 for a manual gearbox) will be flashed into my engine ECU. This sorts out fuelling and importantly knock sensor ECU coding problems.

C.

[gio_italy]

Hello

stay away from 1.4 engine. Nothing but problems, take it from me.

John, a few posts ago you mentioned that your engine would have been replaced. Now I see that you're currently driving a 122hp scirocco. Did you trade in your 160hp for a 122hp?

Just to avoid confusion, let me remind that the 122 hp, turbocharged only, version of the 1.4 TSI engine has been largely unaffected by the issues discussed in this thread. Of course, bad engines happen. I just want to make it clear that 1.4 122hp TSI owners have no reasons to be worried about their engines (yet:-)

Exactly that, its running very lean. But besides coil packs failing, the Knock sensor is not operating correctly in the engine ECU coding. I logged on Saturday some data which showed on light throttle the ignition/fuel and knock sensor getting confused. This is known to VW. I run G4009 standard of software in the ECU (factory loaded May 2009 - April 2010) at the moment. When I get 24s4 update on Thursday, G5860 (G5859 for a manual gearbox) will be flashed into my engine ECU. This sorts out fuelling and importantly knock sensor ECU coding problems.

This is very interesting. Would you please be so kind to provide us with further details about your latest findings on the knock-sensor getting confused?

I got the 5859 upgrade (up from the factory installed 5447 software release) some ten days ago as part of the 24s4 service campaign. I now find the car definitely more enjoyable at low rpms (read smoother/linear below 2,000 rpms). The behaviour at higher revs seems the same as before but I seldom speed and so I might not be the best person to detect subtle changes that may have affected the power delivery above 4,500 rpms.

Gio