TSI or TFSI

[Stu13R]

I have just had a very good chat with the guys at Statller and have been told the followin:

TSI Engine
1. The new 888 engines has proven to produce 360-370hp after just a stage 1 remap.
2. On stage 1 the engine already produces significantly more heat than the 113 and could do with an intercooler.
3. Piston and rod failures have occurred already to the strength of the internals.
4. The exhaust manifold is built into the head so the cooling flows around the exhaust to heat engine quicker and reduce emissions. This is an issue as large turbo apps need the manifold changing but so far no answer on this.

TFSI Engine
1. The 113 engine like in the Rocco R is super strong even with standard internals. They have cars running well over 500hp that are daily drivers, used on track days and for testing, none of which have even had the rods changed.
2. Yes the low remaps do not get as much hp but there are tons of tried and tested options to get the power needed.
3. Lots of turbo options due to race exhaust manifolds available.

Nitrous
They explained that their own TSI car that had nitrous (not sure which engine) was simply too big for the set up they had and caused the head to leak. It was running of 500+ ft/lb torque and didn't even have the head bolt torque setting changed. The system they used relied on the cars own fuel supply and was single point injection into the intake pipework. They agreed running it on multipoint with a stand alone fuel supply would have been better, more efficient and safer.

[xjay1337]

From what i've heard, the bottom end is good for 500hp+.
But yeah, if you want a "bullet proof" engine, rods and pistons are a recommended upgrade.

I went to Real Autosports today and had a long chat with Chris the owner. He said although it's correct that 888 engines gain more hp on lower maps, the 133 engines are far stronger and less problematic. I had read on another forum that a couple of modded Golfs suffered timing chain & tensioner issues and Chris said they know of several that have also had issues with failing internals.

They would recommend changing the rods for increases above 400hp on 113 engines, but have a few customers running 450hp kits with no issues at all. The OEM pistons are low compression and very strong, along with the rods which are uprated as standard. APR rods were suggested as a precaution,

APR stage 1+ needs on an air intake, HPFP and the remap (standard exhaust). This set up gets 340hp and considering I have an intake ready the cost is less that £1k.

Upgrade to APR stage 2+ requires turbo back exhaust, intercooler and a few bits and pieces which gives about 380hp at an additional cost of £2k.

For less than 3k to get there over 2 stages seems very reasonable. I also like the idea of being able to keep the standard exhaust to start with. The advantage there is you don't buy parts that need replacing later, like the Stage 2+ needing turbo back which uses a different downpipe.

I am doing some further research with Wizards of NOS to see if their multipoint various jet nitrous kit is compatible with the KO4 turbo. If that works one option is to go for rods and keep the same turbo and add 75-100hp NOS to massively increase the power through the rev range where is lacks. This way there would be no need to increase the rev range and move the power band higher which makes the car a worse daily driver like a stage 3 or 4.

If you are going for a TFSI (Ea113) build then there's only one tuner you should be considering and that is Rtech. They are not really that far away... you HAVE to travel for the best results, anything less than the best is pointless.

We had a RR day at Surrey Rolling Road and Rtech were consistently way over and above the equivalent from APR, Revo, other random tuners, etc by quite significant margins.
Rtech are also the cheapest and are by far and away the most knowledgable when it comes to any issues.

Stage 1 - Remap
Stage 2 - Intake (Evoms, Forge Twintake, ITG or Revo), Decat or Sports cat, with Cat back system (BCS are the ones to go for, avoid Miltek...welds are crap and fail).
Stage 2 + - As above but with the addition of an intercooler (Darkside Custom S3 Intercooler, Audi S3 with metal end tanks) , HPFP, get a LOBA one. (Autoshite internals are not reliable and APR is scene taxed to hell). - You can also add WMI here.

Adding a HPFP without doing anything to the exhaust system is a waste of your uprated HPFP as turbo will not be able to breathe properly.
Stock pipe is hideously restrictive especially with the pre-cat section in place.

I would not recommend NOS...reading through your posts you seem pretty set on NOS as a good, reliable way of making extra power (perhaps you have a history of this) when it's not really. It will also more than likely start to break parts fairly quickly.

So if you do things properly.........

Intercooler - £300 (fitting is a BITCH and is 3 hours labour...AKS Tuning do this for £180) - So let's say £500.
Full TBE, used - Decat approx £550, Sports cat approx £800, fitting £75
LOBA HPFP - £400...fit yourself.
Evoms intake - £300 .. fit yourself.
Rtech Stage 2 mapping (£350) with DSG software (£150)... £500.

So for about £800 less than your intial 3k estimate with better results.

Then you will go from 200bhp on a K03 powered car to about 275-280..limits of stock turbo basically.... or from about 240/265 on a K04 (such as the Scirocco R) to around 350-360.... add WMI to this and if the car is physically healthy then you will be looking at about 380 as a maximum. Any more than this requires a bigger turbo... over 450bhp and I would start looking at uprating parts here, because once you start pushing over and above this, any weaknesses will be highlighted and if you want a reliable, decent setup then that's what you need to do!

[Stu13R]

If you are going for a TFSI (Ea113) build then there's only one tuner you should be considering and that is Rtech. They are not really that far away... you HAVE to travel for the best results, anything less than the best is pointless.

We had a RR day at Surrey Rolling Road and Rtech were consistently way over and above the equivalent from APR, Revo, other random tuners, etc by quite significant margins.
Rtech are also the cheapest and are by far and away the most knowledgable when it comes to any issues.

Stage 1 - Remap
Stage 2 - Intake (Evoms, Forge Twintake, ITG or Revo), Decat or Sports cat, with Cat back system (BCS are the ones to go for, avoid Miltek...welds are crap and fail).
Stage 2 + - As above but with the addition of an intercooler (Darkside Custom S3 Intercooler, Audi S3 with metal end tanks) , HPFP, get a LOBA one. (Autoshite internals are not reliable and APR is scene taxed to hell). - You can also add WMI here.

Adding a HPFP without doing anything to the exhaust system is a waste of your uprated HPFP as turbo will not be able to breathe properly.
Stock pipe is hideously restrictive especially with the pre-cat section in place.

I would not recommend NOS...reading through your posts you seem pretty set on NOS as a good, reliable way of making extra power (perhaps you have a history of this) when it's not really. It will also more than likely start to break parts fairly quickly.

So if you do things properly.........

Intercooler - £300 (fitting is a BITCH and is 3 hours labour...AKS Tuning do this for £180) - So let's say £500.
Full TBE, used - Decat approx £550, Sports cat approx £800, fitting £75
LOBA HPFP - £400...fit yourself.
Evoms intake - £300 .. fit yourself.
Rtech Stage 2 mapping (£350) with DSG software (£150)... £500.

So for about £800 less than your intial 3k estimate with better results.

Then you will go from 200bhp on a K03 powered car to about 275-280..limits of stock turbo basically.... or from about 240/265 on a K04 (such as the Scirocco R) to around 350-360.... add WMI to this and if the car is physically healthy then you will be looking at about 380 as a maximum. Any more than this requires a bigger turbo... over 450bhp and I would start looking at uprating parts here, because once you start pushing over and above this, any weaknesses will be highlighted and if you want a reliable, decent setup then that's what you need to do!

Firstly Jay I would like to thank you for your great post and mass of information. The more the better and especially from owners that know the tuners.

Regarding NOS I feel a lot of people have negative feelings about this and are without being rude often misplaced.

One of my best friends is a drag car engineer and has worked with NOS on some world record holding cars. He is the person who got me into NOS almost 15 years ago. Back in the day most US owners used dry kits (no additional fuel supply) and no controllers.

The biggest mith is NOS is damaging to an engine. There are 2 reasons why NOS can damage an engine which are too much power and going lean.

To much power
This is no different from having a giant turbo and turning the boost up to unsafe level, beyond the capability of the engine components. Very easy to overcome as you only have to know what safe hp and torque the engine can cope with and stay within that.

Going lean
A dry kit is a risky way of running NOS and should never be done. If the engine went lean due to running out of the additional fuel needed it would cause piston meltdown. This is one of the easiest things to safe guard against. Firstly on low level cars you can tap into the existing fuel supply so the system has a fuel and a NOS solenoid (wet system).
The best way to run a system is to have a separate fuel supply pump and line. I would usually use the cars original pump after adding a HPFP, as that would be far better than required.
You then have a quality controller that would shut off the NOS if the fuel solenoid was not getting supply. It can also be linked to sensors on the car as an additional fail safe to detect leaning.

Why is NOS better than increased turbo boost?
The only ways to increase power is to burn more fuel or burn it more efficiently. When you use a larger turbo or up the boost you are squashing large volumes of air into the cylinders so there is enough oxygen to increase the fuel and keep the fuel/air ratio correct. With NOS there is no need to push increased volumes of air into the cylinders as NOS is oxygen rich as it breaks down. This causes less stress on the internal parts. NOS also has a massive cooling effect like using water/methanol injection and makes the combustion of more efficient, including more uniform over the face of the piston. This in turn is better for the engine.
With the right controller NOS can be brought in as soft as needed and faded out at any rpm, especially good when mapping to take into account the existing power curve.

Engines can produce larger power lower in the rev range without damage de to the centrifugal effect on the molecules in component parts. Basically the faster something spins the more likely it is to fail or prematurely wear.

One of my previous cars was a 3.2 v6 supercharged lump that had a 463hp atw completed blue print race engine. Max hp was at 7500 rpm and I had a additional twin NOS kit with direct inj and 200hp jets. This was wet self supplied fuel type that came in soft at 2250 rpm and faded out by 5300 rpm so the max torque only increased by a further 20%, but in the lower rpm range was almost 200% increase.

Wet kits with controllers on 6 cars including NA, Supercharged & turbo with not one single issue.

I bow down to the superior knowledge of VW engines on this forum but I stand by the fact NOS is super safe if done correctly. Statller agreed with me on this even though they had an issue.

[eMiL-VR6]

Im running on GIAC extreme file,

VF Engineering 3" intake
Autotech HPFP
Audi RS3 LPFP
Audi RS4 FPV
Eurojet 3" TBE
Eurojet intercooler
LOBA-Sachs upgrade clutch kit, single disc 550Nm (OEM clutch went kaputt after 9000km on stage 2)

I ran it on a Mustang dyno before i changed the intercooler and did a re-map.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/139/bnksciroccor.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Im looking to go one stage further and buy me some Audi RS4 injectors and a LOBA4xx turbo, BUT!
It's a daily driven car and with this kind of mods i think the car will run bad as a daily.
Also you need to upgrade a lot of the handling to put down the power on the ground.

Also you could take a chat with "Rev555" here on the forum or check his thread!
His car is total porn!
http://www.sciroccocentral.co.uk/forum/ ... 13&t=10684" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry for a strange post but i thought it would belong here haha.

[Stu13R]

Good post eMil.

Statllor said they do a Hybrid turbo based on the K04 which may be of interest to you and runs on stage 2+ map. Looks like you have everything else needed.

[b0rk]

I get it, a Golf is quicker and cheaper to tune and I can see why some owners who look at the figures would want to go buy one. I still say a Golf looks no where near as good and I hope the majority of members on here agree.

I will enjoy my extremely good looking Rocco and concentrate on what counts most - Scirocco driving and modding. Another thing I will say is I will make sure my Rocco get the mods it deserved using all the great advice I have been getting on here. I'm sure a stage 3 with rods, pistons and multipoint nitrous would be a good aim.

Actually my argument based on having previously owned a stage 2 R was that handling is just as, if not more important to big power in terms of everyday driving enjoyment.
I went down the power route initially as the costs seemed reasonable for the performance gain, only to realise that outside of the pod it wasn't that much faster point to point as a road car. Having 320+ hp is great until you find that the car can not put it down all that well vs a mk6 GTI that's had handling mods but is stage 1 or actually a mk7 GTI PP that's box fresh. The last being a sadly true experience from a track day at brands early last year where a mk7 GTI PP was faster through all of the corners.

A Scirocco as coupe is prettier than a Golf and this what saw me order one nearly five years ago then realising that the market had considerably moved on technically such that I'd get similar enjoyment out of a "stock" car is what saw me sell the car and move on last year, incidentally not to a Golf or anything VAG.

If I had my time again personally I'd start with handling modifications then progressively add power, getting the base right first is IMHO better than ending up constantly chasing balance and refinement through ever further modification.

[Stu13R]

I agree handling is very important and a Maclaran pit mech once told me a car is only ever as good as its brakes. I play GT3 on play station and you can't win races without a blend of all mods on high settings, just like a real car.

There is however tons of handling mods for the Rocco and they must be getting them to a decent standard to race them.

[xjay1337]

Cheers for the insight on NOS mate.
I suppose if done correctly then you'll be fine.

Just usually fuel =/= boost.
If your stock turbo can only do let's say 400bhp at best, if you're at 400 you have no real gain using NOS other than to increase boost pressure and bang the turbo! Haha.

AKS Tuning TTRS Brake setup withe either 340mm (£1300) or 370ish mm (£1900) will do you more than enough.

[Stu13R]

Cheers for the insight on NOS mate.
I suppose if done correctly then you'll be fine.

Just usually fuel =/= boost.
If your stock turbo can only do let's say 400bhp at best, if you're at 400 you have no real gain using NOS other than to increase boost pressure and bang the turbo! Haha.

AKS Tuning TTRS Brake setup withe either 340mm (£1300) or 370ish mm (£1900) will do you more than enough.

The thing with NOS is the cooling effect means you don't need as much boost to produce the same hp, a bit like using a performance intercooler, You are getting masses of additional oxygen without the large volume of compressed air.

If you are at the max on your turbo then the most efficient way to set the NOS up is to have the power increase reduce in line with the increased boost/power from the turbo. This way you could keep the max torque your car is safely producing but have access to that power level over a larger portion of your rev range. You end up with a really good power band and can change up gears without dropping out of the power band.

[wigit]

Actually my argument based on having previously owned a stage 2 R was that handling is just as, if not more important to big power in terms of everyday driving enjoyment.
I went down the power route initially as the costs seemed reasonable for the performance gain, only to realise that outside of the pod it wasn't that much faster point to point as a road car. Having 320+ hp is great until you find that the car can not put it down all that well vs a mk6 GTI that's had handling mods but is stage 1 or actually a mk7 GTI PP that's box fresh. The last being a sadly true experience from a track day at brands early last year where a mk7 GTI PP was faster through all of the corners.

A Scirocco as coupe is prettier than a Golf and this what saw me order one nearly five years ago then realising that the market had considerably moved on technically such that I'd get similar enjoyment out of a "stock" car is what saw me sell the car and move on last year, incidentally not to a Golf or anything VAG.

If I had my time again personally I'd start with handling modifications then progressively add power, getting the base right first is IMHO better than ending up constantly chasing balance and refinement through ever further modification.

Totally agree with you b0rk in what you have said but some are always going to be chasing numbers which on a fwd is always going to be compromised

Your track session is similar to me testing back to back around my preferred route with the MQB GTI carrying about 10mph more through some bends as it just gave you more confidence, the MQB R is pulling even higher speeds over the GTI with the limiting factor being visibility after these bends

AKS Tuning TTRS Brake setup withe either 340mm (£1300) or 370ish mm (£1900) will do you more than enough.

Great kit with a nice oem feel

I agree handling is very important and a Maclaran pit mech once told me a car is only ever as good as its brakes. I play GT3 on play station and you can't win races without a blend of all mods on high settings, just like a real car.

There is however tons of handling mods for the Rocco and they must be getting them to a decent standard to race them.

The guy who pretty much did all the handling stuff on my Rocco funny enough is an ex F1 mechanic who runs a race team, worth noting that the Rocco race cars in the VW cup only ten to have 230-250bhp as the championship runs on power to weight, yes they handle and stop as have lsd, brakes and a decent AST coilover set up and a shed load of camber, there lies the compromise

Rev555 rocco is just a master class in terms of Roccos, personally the clubsports are a little firm for road and ten not to like everyday winter conditions

Plenty of talk in this thread and look forward to seeing you go for it on a new R, bar the NOS nothing being talked about is new given I've been reading builds like this for 6 years now but can count one one hand the fwd drive cars that did not feel compromised

[Phil]

avoid Miltek...welds are crap and fail

I'd say the amount of milltek owners on this forum would be quite against this to be honest. Very happy with mine and have had no problems what so ever - but even if i did I have a life time warranty so whats not to like

[Stu13R]

avoid Miltek...welds are crap and fail

I'd say the amount of milltek owners on this forum would be quite against this to be honest. Very happy with mine and have had no problems what so ever - but even if i did I have a life time warranty so whats not to like

Its good to hear you get a lifetime warranty with your exhaust Phil. I was told by Regal that they have experienced more quality issues with these exhausts over the last year. I know an exhaust manufacturer and I guess it can often boil down to the welder and some quality issues can happen regardless of the make.

I have heard good things about BCS exhausts but I am still umdecided on what is the best Rocco exhaust on the market.

[Phil]

Having heard lukes - next time I would go APR. Have heard great things about BCS though, but just by looking at popularity of the milltek you can't go wrong with them either

[whiteDevil_170]

Having heard lukes - next time I would go APR. Have heard great things about BCS though, but just by looking at popularity of the milltek you can't go wrong with them either

With aprs recent exposure regarding the exhaust systems I wouldn't buy anything Apr. Have a look on Google. http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6640" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Phil]

Having heard lukes - next time I would go APR. Have heard great things about BCS though, but just by looking at popularity of the milltek you can't go wrong with them either

With aprs recent exposure regarding the exhaust systems I wouldn't buy anything Apr. Have a look on Google. http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6640" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Woah... There may be quite a few unhappy people after that! Miselling a product and upping the price..

[whiteDevil_170]

Having heard lukes - next time I would go APR. Have heard great things about BCS though, but just by looking at popularity of the milltek you can't go wrong with them either

With aprs recent exposure regarding the exhaust systems I wouldn't buy anything Apr. Have a look on Google. http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6640" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Woah... There may be quite a few unhappy people after that! Miselling a product and upping the price..

yep and that's why I wouldn't touch anything Apr .

[Stu13R]

Personally with an engineering background I can see how APR could easily fall foul by not carrying out regular quality control checks on their partner manufacturers. That isn't saying that's an excuse but Global companies like Electrolux have ended up finding out about sub standard manufacturing from customer complaints. It's what they do about it after that.

I won't go for one of their exhausts now for this reason and the fact the RSC system incorporates various bends to reduce sounds, where we all know the straighter the rout the less restriction.

On plus note I do have faith in their in-house R&D for tuning and various other parts. I think they are a very good tuner with high standards that took for granted that a major exhaust manufacturer would produce to the standard everyone would expect.

I won't be buying their HPFP though as it is way too expensive.

[wigit]

Exhausts are always going to be subjective in terms of noise, but when you are paying between £1,000 and approaching £2,000 you expect the quality to be spot on, lifetime warranty means your loyal exhaust is reminiscent of the old broom and do you really want it repeatedly removed etc

Some companies did have quality issues but I thought these had subsided, from experience the system on my GT had cracks around the down pipe flanges after two years, I went for a 3" race system which was resonated on my Ed35 which is the same as the R system and was glad when removed as it was woeful in terms of noise and new owner reported quality issues. I have friends who work for that company and when asked to borrow my R declined the generous offer as did not want to promote them

In reality the only company you get few complaints on the web is BCS and they do a great job, the TSI hasn't got the ugly back box and member here swapped to one on his R

Some of this stuff you need to read through the marketing machine hype

You get all the claims about air plane grade materials on these systems when they have used poor material for flanges and poor welding when VW can make a system that lasts a lifetime

[Stu13R]

I had a v6 with twin ss 3 inch non resonated performance cat exhaust (turbo back) from Stealth Systems in Southampton. It was the best exhaust I'd ever bought with perfect welds etc eve after 8 years when I sold the car.

It had a super deep quality sound but sadly they went bust and in my opinion for not charging enough for their systems.

[xjay1337]

avoid Miltek...welds are crap and fail

I'd say the amount of milltek owners on this forum would be quite against this to be honest. Very happy with mine and have had no problems what so ever - but even if i did I have a life time warranty so whats not to like

Its good to hear you get a lifetime warranty with your exhaust Phil. I was told by Regal that they have experienced more quality issues with these exhausts over the last year. I know an exhaust manufacturer and I guess it can often boil down to the welder and some quality issues can happen regardless of the make.

I have heard good things about BCS exhausts but I am still umdecided on what is the best Rocco exhaust on the market.

Anything that fits a Golf will fit the Scirocco.. it's same car.
Lots of people on mk5golfgti having issues with Miltek exhausts... around the turbo where it starts to bend round it cracks.
Lifetime warranty but you need to spend the money and effort / time on labour...