cold start mis fires on tsi 1.4tsi

[garsons]

i have had 1.4 tsi from new done 10,000 miles and car before xmas started to mis fire from cold running epc light and exhaust gas lamp warning take straight to garage which we did
Garage said no faults logged reset car three weeks later same misfire garage under warranty replace coil packs all 4 replaced returned this time engin running ok for a day or two thenback in for 4 new injectors back again returned then soon undrivable again from cold so truck takes back to garage volkswagon proceed to advise main dealer to take head off and view pistons and photo head,im concerned why not do software first so now the car is at garage for another £2k worth of warranty work the first work cost nearly £2k i know it is under warranty but i have lost all confidance with the car and really frearful for its return
has anybody any experiences or ideas what may be wrong and how i stand with such a devil of a car my pride and joy trashed!!
regards garsons
ps should i ask for a new car?

[skyblues11]

i feel you Garsons. no new car, or any car, should be like this. Not after 10k miles.

if manufacturers start making cars like they are making fast moving consumer electronics, then they should have the curtasy to just give you a new engine at least.

surely they can melt the metal and use it again?

[peppermuncher]

A friend of mine is an aeronaughtical engineer. (Gee he's clever)

On our many car conversations he said that he wouldn't touch the 1.4, just because of the use of both turbo and super charging. Was chirping on about combustion pressures blah blah. Also chatting to a SEAT engineer and he said that they are getting so many returns of the 1.4.

Real shame as i was looking into getting the 1.4.

[maisbitt]

Garsons: Could just be the dealer trying to screw VW out of some warranty revenue by doing the expensive checks first.

I had issues with a 170TDI Golf when the engine was new technology, and debut of the DPF. I got loads of DPF warnings that it was filling up, despite doing lots of motorway miles to unclog it.

The dealer took the cylinder head off, looked at the injectors etc and saw a tiny burr on the cylinder head internals. They replaced the cylinder head and a few other bits. A week later it was doing the same thing again. They got onto VW Germany and there was a software fix. No more DPF issues, but my car never started right again (used to turn over in 1/2 a sec with the original cylinder head, turned over in about 5 secs with the new one).

The dealer did about 3 grands-worth (at retail) of warranty work for nothing!

Tell them that your patience is wearing thin with this car and you'll reject it as unfit for purpose if they can't permanently fix it promptly.

[jc_boc]

Hey there mate, yeah many of the SEAT twin chargers suffered this issue, but mainly early models which appears to have been sorted now. There were a few changes such as ECU updates, new plugs etc. Some guys even had engines replaced but in all fairness these issues seem to have been sorted. Have you spoken to your loca stealer to see if they are aware of the issues and the fixes? Touch wood mine has run sweet as a nut from day one, although I have a recall for the software update but going stage two so REVO will flash the new software any way.

[scirocco_gt_22]

it could be somthing as simple as a coolant temreture sensor as it would make the car over fuel and soak the spark plugs from cold dos it turn over?

[pishpashposh]

my car has decided to throw a wobbly now, had an engine management light come on Monday so took it straight to the dealer and while i was driving it was misfiring, quite obvious vibrations while idling too. its been there ever since as they needed new injectors - or so they thought. problem not solved and they now think its time for a new engine! Anyone ever had an engine changed before? did it run as well as before?

[Crossbone]

A friend of mine is an aeronaughtical engineer. (Gee he's clever)

On our many car conversations he said that he wouldn't touch the 1.4, just because of the use of both turbo and super charging. Was chirping on about combustion pressures blah blah. Also chatting to a SEAT engineer and he said that they are getting so many returns of the 1.4.

Real shame as i was looking into getting the 1.4.

garsons owns the 122, which only has one turbo, and not the 160, the one with the turbo and compressor.

[panrafal]

Did the dealers ever correct this on Your cars?

Mine is brand new, I've picked it up 3 days ago and it misfires on cold start for around 20-30 seconds and then works flawlessly. Yesterday it was pretty worrying, as the car got wobbly, the revs weren't stable and i could hear and feel the misfires. Today it was better, as the revs were constant, but the misfires persisted. No warning lights showed up, the Torque app doesn't show any faults.

Is it something to worry about at all? May it incur any damage if it happens for a long time? If not, then I would wait for two-three weeks and see if it passes away, before going to the dealers for a checkup.

[RW1]

The 160PS should cold start like this ......

Engine Start Cold 1-4TSi160PS 060412.zip

With a raised rpm, sound a little "dieselly" for upto a minute depending on outside temperature and then die away to a smooth slow idle. At no time is it rough/vibrating.

Yours has a problem from your desciption. As its new..... to the dealer to sort it.

C.

[panrafal]

RW1 you are a true roccopedia (but You probably hear this a lot) !

Mine sounded today exactly as in your mp3, apart from occasional misfires. The dealer says to wait a few days to collect any outstanding issues, so they can handle them all in one go.
Maybe I'll drive there today, so they can connect the vagcom and check if anything significant got reported.

[voyager]

Just goes to show the poor standard of PDIs done by garages these days. Seems like you have to give them a stack of money then drive the car for a few weeks to come up with a list of snags that they should have found during the PDI.

[panrafal]

I've been to the dealers. They've kept the car overnight and where suppose to connect the computer and start it up on cold, to see what's going on. They say they did it, and that everything is all right, engine is running quietly and smoothly.
I don't know if they didn't check it properly, or started the car before to move it around, or the temperature/moisture was different. What i do know is, that every time I start it from cold (after at least 4-6 hours of no use) i hear exactly this for around 20-30 secs (this is not my car, but the same engine and the same symptoms):
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They also say, that there were no fault codes.

I'm planning to try another petrol brand, and if it doesn't help, will try 95 (now i'm using 98).

[RW1]

Yes I'd expect no fault codes with those little blips in the exhaust sound.

95RON will make it worse. The only way it can be lessened is 99RON or above petrol.

A lot more can be done by adjusting the spark plugs carefully. Can you take out the spark plugs and measure the gaps? I suspect the plugs are wide (ie. 0.85mm) and could do with being at reset to 0.75mm. The revised plug from VW part number 03C 905 601A at 0.8mm will help a lot, which should be already fitted. So surprised to hear that sort of exhaust sound missing beats like the YouTube video.

C.

[panrafal]

Unfortunately i have neither tools nor knowledge to check the plugs.
It's a leased car, so the only place where i can service it is an authorised garage.but they say, that if they can't find a problem, they won't do anything about it.

99ron is way too expensive, but i may try it once

Is it at all dangerous? It makes me a little bit worried considering the previous problems with misfires. But if it won't damage the engine, then i can live with that.
I'm wondering though, how it's gonna be in winter...

[RW1]

There is another alternative.......

I've noticed in the last two weeks with the dry artic air over the UK, that there is a little murmur on my idle at initial start when the humidity is low at 15% - 20% and air temps at 17'C plus. The 1.4 160PS generally can have a cold start misfire/dry air problem which was rectified late 2010 with update (ECU Software: 0888 M./8913 DSG.).

Looking at Poland, you seemed to have had the same dry air since you took delivery of your Scirocco. Maybe wait and see if damper weather it goes. The "fix" above is already in the engine ECU software but maybe it doesn't go far enough in specific conditions as above. If in damper weather it dissappears, then the best you can do is shorten the plug gap to 0.75mm.

Did the dealer house the car overnight inside and start it up inside. Humidity can be higher inside the garage under those circumstances and so no misfire.

Is it at all dangerous? It makes me a little bit worried considering the previous problems with misfires. But if it won't damage the engine, then i can live with that.

The question is, does it do it just for upto about 4 minutes from cold start or is the hot idle also misfiring?

- If upto the first 4 mins, then dry air problem likely and plug gaps to 0.75mm to minimise.
- If all the time when it idles cold or hot, then something else is wrong and the misfire could also be at normal running RPM which is not good long term.

C.

[panrafal]

It lasts only for about 30 seconds. i didn't feel any misfires while driving, both when idling and under load.
It was in fact quite dry since I've bought it, but now the weather changes, so maybe it will help somehow.

I think I'll wait and see for now. Observing the weather and petrol changes. The fact that no errors got logged makes me somehow less nervous about it. If it doesn't go away, I'll find someone to check the gaps for me.

Thanks for your input.

[Slow-in]

Hi.

First of all, thanks for all the valueable information available on sciroccocentral!

I'm a bit unsure whether I'm supposed to start a new thread on this, but I think I'll be mostly within topic, so I'll try here.

Since May 18th I've been a proud owner of a candy white Scirocco 1.4 160 DSG, mileage 33400 km (20750 miles). It's a MY2010, finished thursday in week 20 2009 if I am correct (chassis WVWZZZ13ZAV449***, and 20-4-0578 on the boot sticker). The car was purchased 15th of june 2010 by the first owner. It was called in for the 24S4 campaign around october 2010, and was serviced in august 2011 at 23500 km (14600 miles). The spark plugs were not changed.

There are a couple of things I'm unsure of.

1. My first cold-start was a surprise. The revs varied between 1200 – 1300 rpm, and there were misfires like panrafal's link " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; only worse. The engine shaked the car a bit. This happened with every cold-start. I took the car to the dealer, and they updated the ECU to the latest version, for free. They didn't find any fault codes.

The three first cold-starts after the update were perfect, engine hummed smoothly, now at around 1100 rpm, like RW1's link
Engine Start Cold 1-4TSi160PS 060412.zip
Then the wheather changed, from 20+C to less than 10C with rain, and during the 1100 rpm startup, the enginge had two large misfires. It really coughed... The next cold-start was perfect again.

As I have learned here, changing the spark plugs from 101 905 626 (which are probably fitted to the engine) to 03C 905 601A might help, not only with the cold-start, but with how the engine runs in general, and even with gear changes. And it can help the engine to last for a longer time.

I can't decide whether I should rid myself of the paranoia and leave it alone, or if it actually is important that I get the spark plugs changed... Any advice?
(I'm not a mechanic, so I won't change them myself or try to re-gap them)

2. I've driven 1600 km (1000 miles) the last three weeks. A little bit of sporty driving, but most of the time I've driven smoothly. I've had to re-fill nearly 1/2 litres of oil. Is that a bit much?


Ketil, Norway

[panrafal]

Theoretically i already have the spark plugs that you mention, and the problem exists. Don't know if additional regapping would be of any benefit, probably yes, bit I'mnot very knowledgeable in this area
If it's better after the update, and it only does this when cold, and not under heavy load, i think i would leave it alone. Unless you can change them go free, then i would go for it

[RW1]

Hi.

First of all, thanks for all the valueable information available on sciroccocentral!

I'm a bit unsure whether I'm supposed to start a new thread on this, but I think I'll be mostly within topic, so I'll try here. .........................

............ I can't decide whether I should rid myself of the paranoia and leave it alone, or if it actually is important that I get the spark plugs changed... Any advice?
(I'm not a mechanic, so I won't change them myself or try to re-gap them)

2. I've driven 1600 km (1000 miles) the last three weeks. A little bit of sporty driving, but most of the time I've driven smoothly. I've had to re-fill nearly 1/2 litres of oil. Is that a bit much?

Ketil, Norway

Is the oil consumption a recent change or just checked it and found it low? If not checked before, just monitor it for a while. Oil consumption is variable across the engines from none like mine to the level you write. Although yours is not at the extreme end.

The backfire of the nature you are indicating in the exhaust suggests a look in the cylinders. What they should be looking for is an injector with a poor spray pattern. On taking out the spark plugs, they may find one plug or piston crown has been washed clean due to the fuel spray pattern. They should put a borescope into the cylinders and look at the rear cylinder walls for piston ring scoring if they suspect the injector spray pattern is poor from initial examination of the spark plugs and piston crowns.

If scoring, its not good news with the oil consumption as you may be experiencing cylinder bore fuel washing which removes the oil off the cylinder wall. And that is not good news as its how the 1.4TSi fails eventually.

C.