To DSG or not to DSG

[Jim]

What do we think?

It's a pretty hefty £1300 extra. Nice though it sounds I'm not the technology is 100% tested out yet. Just for commuting to work and pounding the motorways i don't think it's going to be of much use to me really. It's more for people who have a regular country lane/B road journey I think.

I'd hate to think what a new clutch costs on it!

[wigit]

i drove a gti edition 30 with dsg and it did not grab me, sure its refined and even blips the throttle on the down changes, however, the buttons feel cheap and you hear a horrible click when you change gear which totally desensatises you from the experience, the dsg did not make me feel involved on a fast b road and despite a lot of city centre driving personally i'd still take the manual every time

[Kev]

Yeah I think it's a bit too 'playstation' for me. I'm sure on the right road at the right time in the right car it's feels great but for me I think I'd rather go down the conventional 'box route for now.

[RedRobin]

....I've extensively (not just 10 miles) test driven the Scirocco with DSG and it's super smooth. My own Mk5 GTI is DSG and heavily modified and I've had it 3 years and wouldn't consider another car without it or a very similar transmission (Evo X).

DSG really is the best of all worlds and the majority of hard-nosed manual drivers who have driven DSG for a while simply wouldn't have another car without it. For urban driving or traffic jam queues, the D-mode is very relaxing and easy. I drive in M-mode 95% of the time and those paddles are very tactile and under your fingers as you grip the wheel. Faultless gearshifts and faster than human. You can override any setting at any time too - It takes quite a lot of miles to know all the many optional combinations.

And if you're worried about repair costs - Don't be! No different from the Manual gearbox and the DSG has lots of self-protective safeguards - Your girlfriend can't slip the clutch! (for example).

VW Racing are installing a special version of the Quaife ATB diff in my DSG very soon

[Kev]

So, for those of us who haven't driven a DSG, can you give us a little run down of how it operates in the real world?

I'm assuming you can knock it into fully slushmatic for normal relaxed 2 pedal driving, then when you like you can use the paddles for changes?

Does it have an anti-stall, seeing as you don't have a clutch?
Are hill starts tricky?
How about something like a 3 point turn? Is it a bit fiddly flicking between the gears to do that? I'm guessing there's some lock out to stop you going straight from 1st to reverse.

I also notice the DSG has 7 gears to the manuals 6. Are they spread over the same range or is 7th extra long for economy? And if they're in the same space does that mean you do a bit more cog swapping than you would in the manual?

Although I wasn't so sure to start with, I've been doing some maths and could well have enough to add it when the time comes to order. It seems to be the 'box of choice among the orders I've seen on forums so far.

[RedRobin]

....I've now done 52,000 miles in 3 years of DSG. I've driven a huge variety of vehicles as I've been driving for over 40 years - I've had manuals and automatics.

I chose the DSG option because I was lucky enough to have a VW salesman who is a karting champ and so an enthusiast who showed me its capabilities. I extensively test drove both DSG and Manual GTI versions before deciding.

Without going into lengthy technical descriptions, the system has its own 'ECU' called a Mechatronics Module. It has a wet clutch arrangement which has one lower and one higher gear in constant readiness for your selection manually or according to your revs/throttle/braking pedal usage. It also learns your driving style and is easily reset.

For about the first 10k miles I only used D and S-modes - Using them as if the car was just a 2-gear manual - Pop into S for either an overtake or some fun in the twisties. D-mode automatically changes gear for economy and S takes you to the red line before changing. The S-mode is supernaturally adept at selecting a gear at the same time you would manually if driving hard - I can almost change gear with my brake pedal! But then I decided to remap my brain and did some advanced driver training (CarLimits and Drivetrain). That's where I relearnt the importance of always being in the right gear for any eventuality (blue light training) and so now I'm 95% in M-mode and using the paddles and never the 'tiptronic' nudging of the floor stick - What's the point when the paddles are under your fingers, except in emergency. The nudges do feel emotionless, but the paddles are very tactile and more positive.

I only use D-mode for urban driving or in traffic queues. DSG is very unstressful and you can still have great fun manually choosing whichever gear you want. It takes time to get familiar with so many combinations of the options to the point where it becomes natural and fluid.

Whether you are in S or D, you can overide the gear with your own selection manually and it will automatically revert to D or S after about 30 seconds. If you come to a standstill (at a junction) it will automatically select 1st gear. You cannot go from the gears directly into Reverse by mistake - You have to squeeze the lock on the gear knob and go through N. 3-point turns are best used with D and R. The box has an automatic hill start assist and you can't stall a DSG.

Does the Scirocco have 7 gears!? I think it still has the wet 6-gear version. The dry 7-speed DSG will be on smaller engines in current production as far as I know. I never noticed a 7th gear and I did go into three figures. I just use the gears to stay optimum and am also influenced by revs. That's partly why I much prefer to hear my engine - Milltek!!

What else can I share with you?

[Bagwafu]

The 2.0 litre unit has Six Speed DSG - next years 1.4 superturbocharged unit will have a seven speed DSG box.

HTH

BW

[RedRobin]

....Thanks, BW - I think I know you from another forum.

In my opinion the 2.0T doesn't need a 7th gear.

[Kev]

I knew I'd read about a 7th gear somewhere. My mistake. Yes the 2.0T has 6.

Thanks for the info.

So in D mode you get a sort of mid range gear change for smooth unflustered driving (town and motorway stuff), S mode is the sporty red line version and M is the paddle shift. Cool.

My brother's old A4 had the +/- nudge but he never used it. That was a rather odd CVT box though. Strange sensation driving that. You would get faster the revs never really went anywhere.

Being a bit of a gamer, I suspect if I did go for it I'd be in paddle shift all the time!

[RedRobin]

So in D mode you get a sort of mid range gear change for smooth unflustered driving (town and motorway stuff), S mode is the sporty red line version and M is the paddle shift. Cool.

....Exactly! Nicely and concisely put! 30 mph in 6th is a doddle.

A lot of DSG drivers say they use D-mode on motorways but I still use M and the paddles. There's loads of torque (300 ft lb / 400 Nm) anyway.

At the risk of repeating myself, the Scirocco DSG felt particularly smooth and seamless - Actually a bit too seamless in D-mode for my taste, but that's just me.

This seems to be a good site for dedicated Scirocco drivers - I'll spread the word.

[Kev]

More questions

So to pull away I assume it doesn't move on the idling throttle revs with it in first. You just apply a little right foot and you start to move off?

If you want a quicker get away do you just get the revs up in neutral and pull the paddle? If so doesn't that tend to really slam the gear in like dumping the clutch?

Do you have to lift off the power to change up?

Sorry if these seem daft questions. I've only ever driven manuals.

[RedRobin]

- The idling throttle is very slight/gentle and you can just hold it on the brake pedal when stationary.

- No! The paddle or gears won't engage while in N. You don't need to pile on the revs with the brake on to lay down the power on the road.

- You don't have to lift off whether changing up or down.

You need a DSG test drive . But feel free to ask some more............

[DavidH]

yeah i'd definately suggest trying before buying.We've had two cars with DSG,so i've used the system a lot,i have to say i much prefer a manual on my own car but that's just a personal preference,DSG is very impressive.

Pulling away could be a little tricky on the earlier ones,remember you're effectively controlling the engagement of the clutch and the throttle with one pedal when you pull away,it could be pretty jerky and hard to control your getaway smoothly and have control over the speed of the launch when you need to pull away quickly at a roundabout or something, and was basically a total pain to drive in traffic.I used to call it Moreen (of 'Driving school' fame) as it was like having Moreen under the bonnet in charge of clutch control.We have a later car,an A3 2.0TFSi S-tronic (audi's new name for DSG) and it's much smoother for some reason,i assume it has updated software or something.You still don't have the control you have with a seperate clutch pedal though.

The main advantage to me was being able to left foot brake more of the time,instead of just for corners where you don't need to down shift like i do with a manual.So it's nice to have that vey fast transition from brake to balanced throttle on turn-in available all of the time.This is much more of an advantage to me than having fractionally quicker upshifts.You can also grab some very late downshifts in places where you wouldn't attempt it with a manual as the downshifts are so smooth and quick there's very little forward weight transfer.

The disadvatages in the real world are the small gear display,takes some getting used to when you're used to instinctively knowing and being able to feel what gear you're in with a manual,you really have to take your vision completely off the road to read what gear you're in and then re-focus back on the road,easily enough time to make all the difference between avoiding a hazard and not.Typically you often read it on a straight approaching a corner to know how many gears you're going to knock it down under braking and that moment spent checking the display i consider a real problem (unless you've succsessfully kept count from the last upshfits-inevitably though there are times in road driving when you won't have,eg after cruising a long straight you will find yourself reading the display.

You can just chose to not know and listen on downshifting and then grab an extra downshift if necessary but i prefer to know what gear i'm in approaching a corner,which inevitabley results in taking you're eyes off the road from time to time which takes your attention and vision away from sighting the corner as affectively and constantly or from as early.Go and try it,you'll see what i mean.

Also the same with any automatic,having to look down and fumble around when you need reverse in a hurry (you can't just dip the clutch to roll back at a junction for example).So these thing require more thought and take your attention away from where it should be,things that are completley subconcious and automatic and require none of your attention in a manual.

It does inevitably make you feel more removed from the machine,it's a bit playstation like-the paddles are more like buttons/switches than mechanical levers (because they are).DSG works great when you're cracking on (aside from the important disadvantages i've mentioned-mainly taking yo'ur attention away when it should be 100% focussed on sighting the corner),it's very efficient and effective but i find it a bit unsatisfying and like i say a bit more remote compared to the mechanical controls of a manual.If it had longer paddles fixed to the column (ie sometimes on the road you need more lock and can't keep you're hands at quarter to three) and a much larger gear display higher in you're line of sight so you could read it in the peripheral vision then i'd be more sold on it.I think i'd still buy a manual though but it just depends what you prefer.

i don't recommend it if you plan to use it primarily as an automatic,a torque converter auto is nicer to drive in automatic,if that's your style.

[RedRobin]

Pulling away could be a little tricky on the earlier ones,remember you're effectively controlling the engagement of the clutch and the throttle with one pedal when you pull away,it could be pretty jerky and hard to control your getaway smoothly and have control over the speed of the launch when you need to pull away quickly at a roundabout or something, and was basically a total pain to drive in traffic. I used to call it Moreen (of 'Driving school' fame) as it was like having Moreen under the bonnet in charge of clutch control.We have a later car,an A3 2.0TFSi S-tronic (audi's new name for DSG) and it's much smoother for some reason,i assume it has updated software or something.You still don't have the control you have with a seperate clutch pedal though.

....I don't agree at all! The DSG on the 2005 GTI onwards and the new Scirocco is absolutely nothing like what you describe - It's totally smooth. Perhaps you are booting it instead of feeding the throttle progressively as is better practice for getting the power down in any car whether DSG or Manual.

The disadvatages in the real world are the small gear display,takes some getting used to when you're used to instinctively knowing and being able to feel what gear you're in with a manual,you really have to take your vision completely off the road to read what gear you're in and then re-focus back on the road,easily enough time to make all the difference between avoiding a hazard and not.Typically you often read it on a straight approaching a corner to know how many gears you're going to knock it down under braking and that moment spent checking the display i consider a real problem (unless you've succsessfully kept count from the last upshfits-inevitably though there are times in road driving when you won't have,eg after cruising a long straight you will find yourself reading the display.

....Glance at your rev counter and get a Milltek and listen to your engine. You should be able to feel if your car is in the right gear for optimum acceleration or braking as appropriate. You only find yourself trying to see which gear you are in when you first start using DSG and I agree that the display is far too small on the VAG cars.

You can just chose to not know and listen on downshifting and then grab an extra downshift if necessary but i prefer to know what gear i'm in approaching a corner,which inevitabley results in taking you're eyes off the road from time to time which takes your attention and vision away from sighting the corner as affectively and constantly or from as early.Go and try it,you'll see what i mean.

Also the same with any automatic,having to look down and fumble around when you need reverse in a hurry (you can't just dip the clutch to roll back at a junction for example).So these thing require more thought and take your attention away from where it should be,things that are completley subconcious and automatic and require none of your attention in a manual.

....The sooner someone can realise that the DSG is neither a conventional automatic nor a conventional manual and embrace it's many various possibilities, the sooner that driver can benefit from it and enjoy it.

It does inevitably make you feel more removed from the machine,it's a bit playstation like-the paddles are more like buttons/switches than mechanical levers (because they are).DSG works great when you're cracking on (aside from the important disadvantages i've mentioned-mainly taking yo'ur attention away when it should be 100% focussed on sighting the corner),it's very efficient and effective but i find it a bit unsatisfying and like i say a bit more remote compared to the mechanical controls of a manual.If it had longer paddles fixed to the column (ie sometimes on the road you need more lock and can't keep you're hands at quarter to three) and a much larger gear display higher in you're line of sight so you could read it in the peripheral vision then i'd be more sold on it.I think i'd still buy a manual though but it just depends what you prefer.

....I never find it a problem in DSG M-mode or S-mode to sight a corner either entry or exit. The stock paddles are ergonomically shaped and very tactile and sturdy. If you want to wrestle with a stick in a box of cogs that's fine but I know which I prefer. The paddles can be extended.

i don't recommend it if you plan to use it primarily as an automatic.

....At last something I can agree with! But, each to their own and there's no right or wrong transmission.

[Bagwafu]

Some interesting debate - thanks to all.

Red Robin - how do you extend the paddles - are they a VW part no or just an aftermarket bolt on by someone else - they look quite cool.

BW

[RedRobin]

....Firstly I hope the tone of my words in voicing my opinions in debate did not offend - I sometimes express myself quite sharply without intending to.

The carbonfibre paddle extensions are aftermarket and are also available in aluminium. My experience of cars with aluminium gear knobs are that they burn in hot weather and frostbite in cold! Carbonfibre is warm and pleasant to the touch. They are available exclusively in Europe via The TTshop in Bedford 01234 853 555 - Contact Justin or Dave and please feel free to mention my name.

[DavidH]

Pulling away could be a little tricky on the earlier ones,remember you're effectively controlling the engagement of the clutch and the throttle with one pedal when you pull away,it could be pretty jerky and hard to control your getaway smoothly and have control over the speed of the launch when you need to pull away quickly at a roundabout or something, and was basically a total pain to drive in traffic. I used to call it Moreen (of 'Driving school' fame) as it was like having Moreen under the bonnet in charge of clutch control.We have a later car,an A3 2.0TFSi S-tronic (audi's new name for DSG) and it's much smoother for some reason,i assume it has updated software or something.You still don't have the control you have with a seperate clutch pedal though.

....I don't agree at all! The DSG on the 2005 GTI onwards and the new Scirocco is absolutely nothing like what you describe - It's totally smooth. Perhaps you are booting it instead of feeding the throttle progressively as is better practice for getting the power down in any car whether DSG or Manual.

How can you disagree when you haven't even driven one of the earlier boxes,i have already said that the later boxes are smoother,the car i refer to as 'Moreen' was an earlier car (an '04 A3 FWIW).no,i'm not booting it,i have excellent throttle control thanks.Like i said,even with the latest DSG,you still don't have the control from a single pedal that you have with a seperate clutch pedal to control both the throttle and amount of clutch slip.You still have more precise control with a manual,it's not even a debate.

The disadvatages in the real world are the small gear display,takes some getting used to when you're used to instinctively knowing and being able to feel what gear you're in with a manual,you really have to take your vision completely off the road to read what gear you're in and then re-focus back on the road,easily enough time to make all the difference between avoiding a hazard and not.Typically you often read it on a straight approaching a corner to know how many gears you're going to knock it down under braking and that moment spent checking the display i consider a real problem (unless you've succsessfully kept count from the last upshfits-inevitably though there are times in road driving when you won't have,eg after cruising a long straight you will find yourself reading the display.

....Glance at your rev counter and get a Milltek and listen to your engine. You should be able to feel if your car is in the right gear for optimum acceleration or braking as appropriate. You only find yourself trying to see which gear you are in when you first start using DSG and I agree that the display is far too small on the VAG cars.

I'd rather not drive round with a noisy exhaust,if that's all the same to you.The points i've made are valid and relevant,i invite anyone in doubt to try it out for themselves.Glancing at the rev counter-same deal as glancing at the gear display isn't it? You're saying you never look at the display now that you're used to it? Utter rubbish.

You can just chose to not know and listen on downshifting and then grab an extra downshift if necessary but i prefer to know what gear i'm in approaching a corner,which inevitabley results in taking you're eyes off the road from time to time which takes your attention and vision away from sighting the corner as affectively and constantly or from as early.Go and try it,you'll see what i mean.

Also the same with any automatic,having to look down and fumble around when you need reverse in a hurry (you can't just dip the clutch to roll back at a junction for example).So these thing require more thought and take your attention away from where it should be,things that are completley subconcious and automatic and require none of your attention in a manual.

....The sooner someone can realise that the DSG is neither a conventional automatic nor a conventional manual and embrace it's many various possibilities, the sooner that driver can benefit from it and enjoy it.

Who thinks it's a conventional manual or automatic? I'm really failing to see your point here.I undertand how it works.The points i made in the above paragraph are all valid and explain some of the practical drawbacks in daily driving,atleast the one's i've found.I'm merely giving my take on the system,having used it extensively,and have explained both it's benefits and it's drawbacks..You seem to want us to believe that it has no drawbacks whatsoever.I'm glad you like your car though.What are it's many various possibilities? It's a gear box,it has one only function.Yes i understand how to use all of it's modes.

It does inevitably make you feel more removed from the machine,it's a bit playstation like-the paddles are more like buttons/switches than mechanical levers (because they are).DSG works great when you're cracking on (aside from the important disadvantages i've mentioned-mainly taking yo'ur attention away when it should be 100% focussed on sighting the corner),it's very efficient and effective but i find it a bit unsatisfying and like i say a bit more remote compared to the mechanical controls of a manual.If it had longer paddles fixed to the column (ie sometimes on the road you need more lock and can't keep you're hands at quarter to three) and a much larger gear display higher in you're line of sight so you could read it in the peripheral vision then i'd be more sold on it.I think i'd still buy a manual though but it just depends what you prefer.

....I never find it a problem in DSG M-mode or S-mode to sight a corner either entry or exit.The stock paddles are ergonomically shaped and very tactile and sturdy. If you want to wrestle with a stick in a box of cogs that's fine but I know which I prefer. The paddles can be extended.

Yes,ok,i'll continue to wrestle a stick in a box of cogs,whatever.Your views on this are obviously not the most balanced or objective.It's just a piece of equipment to me,i have explained it's merits and it's drawbacks.You've just gushed about it and then tried to criticise the manual box.And I'm sure you don't find it a problem in automatic modes,i'm obviously talking about when using the paddles to shift manually,where it makes zero differnece whether you're in 'M' or 'S' mode.

Sounds like you're trying to confuse people,and make it sound more complicated tahn it really is,and that because you've somehow mastered it's 'many various possibilities' you're able to say that anyone with a more objective review is just not using it properly.It's actually extremely simple to operate,and takes minutes to learn at most.

i don't recommend it if you plan to use it primarily as an automatic.

....At last something I can agree with! But, each to their own and there's no right or wrong transmission.

Excactly,like i said from the start,i recommend people try it for themselves and make up their own mind which they prefer,it's a matter of personal preference (i've already said that).

[RedRobin]

....Chill

No need to respond as if it was a personal attack. It's just a different point of view. Are you getting a new Rocco? DSG? - Probably not but a pity because it would doubtless change your mindset.

Enjoy it anyway. Do you plan to modify it at all?

[RedRobin]

....I just need to add that DSG does not take "just minutes to learn at most" - Not regards learning the many various combinations in different driving situations to the point where it all becomes fluid and natural without thinking about it. It's not difficult but you do have a lot of options at your fingertips. It's not a learning curve that would put off anyone either. Check around the car forums - I'm not the only one to say exactly this about DSG.

[DavidH]

Yes,exactly,just different points of view.Hopefully we can leave it at that,and don't mind me,i'm just a bit fiesty in a discussion .it's all good though.

Yes i'm getting a scirocco,manual,with leather,xenon,dynaudio.Should be a nice car.i've used DSG a lot (we still own one with DSG) so i don't think it'd change my views on it on the scirocco,i did consider it but i'm not spending the extra when i enjoy the manual just as much.I don't really have a 'mindset' towards it,as you put it,like i say i think it's an impressive system that works very well.I've explained what i see as the positives and minuses of it.Won't be modifying it,i'd rather leave it be,especially while it's under warranty.There's nothing i'd do to it anyway,i think it'll be a very nice car the way it is.