Dreaded 1.4 160 PS Missfire

[Plyphon]

How common is this on 1.4's that have done over 50k? My Mr's has just bought a golf with the 160ps version, I'd like to know if we're going to have a shock coming potentially or if it should be all good.

[Freshclip]

From what i can tell it's a bit of a common thing especially on earlier variants of the engine. VW wont admit that but we all know how honest they are about their cars now ...

My conversations with the companies continues to go like this

Had the finance company on the phone today saying they wont do anything since the fault in the engine wasn't "inherent" at the time of purchase and that the car had done a lot of miles since I bought it, which is a load of horse shite because as UK law (Sale of goods act 1979) states an inherent fault is:

A fault present at the time of purchase. Examples are:
an error in design so that a product is manufactured incorrectly
An error in manufacturing where a faulty component was inserted. The "fault" may not become apparent immediately but it was there at the time of sale and so the product was not of satisfactory standard.

In other words, since i have not modified the engine in any way, whatever part in the car that has failed at 42k miles (an unreasonably low value), was there when i bought the damn thing.



Additionally i bought the car at approx. 17,000 miles and it now sits at approx. 42,000 meaning i've done 25,000 over 2 years which works out at 12,500 miles per year. This is slightly higher than the widely accepted average mileage of 12k per year meaning it hasn't been abused over it's 2 years with me.

again

I'm not giving up, though, i'm going to ring them again tomorrow and see again if they will help and if not i will be taking my case to the financial ombudsman to have an independent verdict.

Not a happy dubber

[Freshclip]

Does anybody have links to investigations/articles/press releases about the issues surrounding the 1.4-TSI 160?

It's commonly mentioned across many forums that issues were acknowledged so surely there is some literature documenting it?

In this thread:

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=407682" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It says:

After it was finally admitted in late 2011 that there was a problem leading to engine failure(bearing in mind the engine came out in 2010), SEAT offered customers new piston rings.
Actually, what they were doing was fitting completely new pistons.

Can anybody provide me some evidence to support this?

[the_winner]

vw from 2009 untill today has change 4 different piston part no.
Dont read Lucifer's Guide , the most are not true .

[BaptisteD07]

Hello,

Sorry, I do not speak much English, I'm French and I have the same problem.

1.4 TSI 160 years in 2009
101.000KM

loss of compression in the cylinder 2!

Volkswagen Diagnosis: broken engine!

A support request is being but I think I would have no support

I created a facebook PGAE gather all those with the same problem

https://www.facebook.com/PANNE-Moteur-T ... 889951929/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[OxonzZz]

From what i can tell it's a bit of a common thing especially on earlier variants of the engine. VW wont admit that but we all know how honest they are about their cars now ...

My conversations with the companies continues to go like this

Had the finance company on the phone today saying they wont do anything since the fault in the engine wasn't "inherent" at the time of purchase and that the car had done a lot of miles since I bought it, which is a load of horse shite because as UK law (Sale of goods act 1979) states an inherent fault is:

A fault present at the time of purchase. Examples are:
an error in design so that a product is manufactured incorrectly
An error in manufacturing where a faulty component was inserted. The "fault" may not become apparent immediately but it was there at the time of sale and so the product was not of satisfactory standard.

In other words, since i have not modified the engine in any way, whatever part in the car that has failed at 42k miles (an unreasonably low value), was there when i bought the damn thing.



Additionally i bought the car at approx. 17,000 miles and it now sits at approx. 42,000 meaning i've done 25,000 over 2 years which works out at 12,500 miles per year. This is slightly higher than the widely accepted average mileage of 12k per year meaning it hasn't been abused over it's 2 years with me.

again

I'm not giving up, though, i'm going to ring them again tomorrow and see again if they will help and if not i will be taking my case to the financial ombudsman to have an independent verdict.

Not a happy dubber

This is a really crap situation to be in, everyone involved knows that this is a problem that should be covered by VW but noone wants to take liability.

My concern is that they might argue under the Sale of Goods Act(1979), as quoted above, that there's no way to prove over the distance you've travelled that you haven't somehow caused that damage through misuse, thus making it not appear to have been there since manufacture. I guess you'd have to prove that it was a faulty piece of equipment when it was first put into the car, which is a nightmare...

We all know that it isn't misuse that's caused it, but I can see them taking that route if they can
I really hope you get somewhere with this though, my fingers are crossed.

[blower]

It is without doubt that this engine has some inherent design flaws..

In terms of using the sales of goods act, and arguing this is an inherent design flaw - I would turn my attention to the sheer number of parts that have been redesigned/revised and also get hold of some TSB's (Technical Service Bulletins).

This list of design flawed parts which have been revised, and when they were revised:

-Piston/Piston rings....revised multiple times from 2009 to 2012.
-Faulty batch of Coil Packs in Wk35/09
-Faulty injectors in last quarter of 2009
-Spark plugs, revised in 2010 and 2012...the wrong spark part number was fitted from factory for 2009 and early 2010 models. The correct one still had too large a spark gap and was revised again.
-Injectors, revised in 2010 - they were altered to reduce spray on the piston crown, causing piston stress through overheating & scorching
-Engine ECU firmware - the biggest change being a service campaign to update the engine ECU, as a load of engines in 2009 were self-destructing with piston failure on less than 10k miles. This was partly down to the knock sensor calibration being incorrect, this was fixed with the 24s4 service campaign . Also the engine was running too lean, so fueling was also increased (resulting in lower MPG that they neglected to tell people about)

If you have a pre 2012 engine there is more than enough reasons to argue that the engine has multiple design flaws as it will not contain all the revised parts above, all of which were to prevent misfires and the resulting piston stress leading to early piston failure.

[Freshclip]

Where would be a the best place to get hold of the TSB's?

Should I go and ask the dealer if i can look at their archives?

I have had a look online but anything relating to the scirocco seems to only apply to the mk2 or earlier... it's like someone has wiped everything relating to the mk3 off the internet!
I'll see what i can find on other cars fitted with the CAVD engine but please let me know if i'm barking up the wrong tree! =D

[OxonzZz]

It is without doubt that this engine has some inherent design flaws..

In terms of using the sales of goods act, and arguing this is an inherent design flaw - I would turn my attention to the sheer number of parts that have been redesigned/revised and also get hold of some TSB's (Technical Service Bulletins).

This list of design flawed parts which have been revised, and when they were revised:

-Piston/Piston rings....revised multiple times from 2009 to 2012.
-Faulty batch of Coil Packs in Wk35/09
-Faulty injectors in last quarter of 2009
-Spark plugs, revised in 2010 and 2012...the wrong spark part number was fitted from factory for 2009 and early 2010 models. The correct one still had too large a spark gap and was revised again.
-Injectors, revised in 2010 - they were altered to reduce spray on the piston crown, causing piston stress through overheating & scorching
-Engine ECU firmware - the biggest change being a service campaign to update the engine ECU, as a load of engines in 2009 were self-destructing with piston failure on less than 10k miles. This was partly down to the knock sensor calibration being incorrect, this was fixed with the 24s4 service campaign . Also the engine was running too lean, so fueling was also increased (resulting in lower MPG that they neglected to tell people about)

If you have a pre 2012 engine there is more than enough reasons to argue that the engine has multiple design flaws as it will not contain all the revised parts above, all of which were to prevent misfires and the resulting piston stress leading to early piston failure.

Piston/piston rings being revised multiple times would be the headline here then - definitely something for Freshclip to take and throw at VW?

[Freshclip]

Hello,

Sorry, I do not speak much English, I'm French and I have the same problem.

1.4 TSI 160 years in 2009
101.000KM

loss of compression in the cylinder 2!

Volkswagen Diagnosis: broken engine!

A support request is being but I think I would have no support

I created a facebook PGAE gather all those with the same problem

https://www.facebook.com/PANNE-Moteur-T ... 889951929/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry i don't understand french so cannot read any of the posts =(

[janherko]

Freshclip, I totally feel for you and I'm damn surprised that things are not going in the right direction with the goodwill. If you say you're all properly stamped WITHOUT any ECU changes, there can't be a reason the manufacturer represented in the UK wouldn't help you...ignore the dealer with their poor attempt to cash you down 800 pounds for don't-know-what-exactly and insist on personal visit to manufacturer/importer premises (not sure where they're based at in the UK) and absolutely insist on short-engine swap completely at their expense. There has been many cases in Germany, Australia and I guess in the UK too, when people got the goodwill in absolutely similar situations like yours. Just run through some VW forums, I've heard about at least 10 cases EU-wide when VW paid full price.
Strange, though, that the UK's VW seems to act very unfriendly. Just come accross with this:
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/ ... m?t=109677" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I repeat what I was told by the VW importer here in SVK, that if my car WASN'T Bluefined before, they would pay full price for new short-engine. I saw the calculation, the part was 9600 euros plus some 2000 for labor. And my car was out of warranty at the time. Though I was unlucky because of Bluefin, I'm pretty satisfied with eventual outcome as I was able to see the whole engine stripped so any arising issue was checked upon and to be honest I trust the CNC guy more than I trust VW manufacture. In addition to his honing/resurfacing skills, his company manufactures their own heavy-duty pistons, conrods, etc. for motorsport. If you were closer, I would totally suggest coming over and see this guy with your situation.

Nevertheless, you do try to convince the VW importer of replacing your engine at their cost. Warn them with lawsuits and possibility of publicly exposing this nonsense in media. VW have hard time in front of them anyway. In continental EU, the diesel emissions scandal is headlined in the news everyday. But talk to importer, not stupid cash-stealing dealers.

As to your question, no I didn't pay for diagnostics that much, it was some 30 euros actually:)
The 800 bill would be for complete labor of disassembing and reassembling the engine. But it's totally useless in your case. A sane person would never use overpriced authorized dealer for such operation. And you know what the problem is, anyway. Permanent low compression means broken piston/piston ring and likely scratched cylinder wall. There's no other scenario. So you either get a new engine from VW on their goodwill or you can have it done at some reasonable and experienced garage with ALL 4 new pistons fitted in and properly checked cylinder walls. I wish you ended with the first option.
J.

PS: even Revo Technik has been warning people with this engine for some time:
http://www.revotechnik.com/support/tech ... ine-issues" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and they also suggest this: "Due to issues with these engines from the factory Revo recommend running NGK BKR7EIX spark plugs whether you're running Stage1 or Stage2 software." I myself am using these spark plugs as well, regardless of standard ECU map.

[Freshclip]

Just a little update:

After getting my MP involved and sending a few really snotty letters and emails i received contact from a customer services rep from the manufacturer. It seems they have put a bit of pressure on the dealer because they have now agreed to half the cost of splitting the head.

It should be getting done today or tomorrow then i will see what they offer me in terms of goodwill.

At least once it's split we can see with 100% certainty what has failed and then proceed from there.

[janherko]

good luck to you
ask them what piston specification is going to be in the new head...just curious

[Freshclip]

Another Update:

So the head was split and what i have been saying all along was correct:

Cylinders 2 and 3 have cracked pistons. Here are some pictures of them.



(I have more, higher res, pictures available if requested)

The dealer agreed to do repairs at trade value and as such came up with a repair bill of £3314. They then went on to tell me due to the goodwill of the manufacturer and the dealer they are willing to do the work for me if i provide a contribution of £662. This is alot better than what i was initially looking at and with the initial diagnosis fee leaves me £1150 out of pocket and as such i have decided to let them go ahead and repair it. However this is not the end of my fight. After discussing it with the manager there they are satisfied that the failure is not down to driving style and have expressed willing to support me in my case against the finance company and are currently writing a report on their findings.

I plan to take the finance company to court to recover the repair and diagnosis costs in addition to my consequential costs (a second car + tax + insurance)

Just goes to show you should take crap like this lying down!

[janherko]

Yep, looks exactly like mine back in 2013, but I had only 3rd cylinder/piston affected. Just carry on with the progress and let them pay for it all along...
Either way, it´s an absolute nonsense we have to deal with this. VW should have recalled every 1.4 TSi twincharger and replace heads with new pistons after very first finding of similar failure, no matter the costs.

[Freshclip]

never did do a follow up post. Ended up getting the car repaired by the dealer and recieved half of what i paid as a "goodwill gesture" from the finance company. All in all i was left £500 out of pocket which isnt TOO bad considering i had a full engine rebuild.


Things to take away from this are:

1.Turbos are no substitute for CC. Twin-charging small engines sounds good on paper but how long can something like that last? (especially with shitty parts)

2.The "added protection" you get for buying a car on finance isn't worth the paper it's written on. Get a bank loan and the lower APR.

3.Do not believe what they tell you when they say that "they've never heard of this happening before". Do your own research and talk to none biased experts.

4.Know your rights as a consumer. The sale of goods act and supply of goods act are your sword and shield when it gets down to brass tacks. Don't be pushed about by men in suits and people with fancy titles. You are paying good money for a service and should expect to be treated as such.

Anyway....Still wasn't happy after the whole ordeal and was sick to the back teeth of dealing with the people at VW finance. The whole event had totally consumed my life and was driving me to the brink of depression so i ended up chipping in the car and grabbing myself a Toyota GT86 for my daily instead with a nice long warranty and a dirt cheap APR.

I Probably wont be checking these forums as much anymore but if anyone runs into this and needs any help or advice feel free to message me on facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/chris.roberts.54379236" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Peace.

[janherko]

"especially with shitty parts"

THIS is the reason, all along, for every damn issue with CAVD engine. Not sure about its later revisions, though, but wouldn't be surprised if they go on with shitty parts in those, too.

How come can stupid Peugeot RCZ R get 270hp out of 1.6 turbocharged engine and you never hear of such nonsense like this? Because as much as I hate French cars, they at least paid great attention to it and put some forged pistons, conrods, etc. in it, OUT OF FACTORY...Twincharged engine like 1.4 TSi could easily be reliable and strong, technology proves...But VW is one messed-up joint, aiming to make biggest margins instead of respecting their customers.

[blower]

Forged pistons will reduce the chance of piston failures - however it is masking the real problem as i have come to learn with a lot of research and my own findings on this engine.
The real problem with CAVD/CAVE engines is all down to fueling issues.

Most, if not all piston failures in this engine are down to fueling problems. The early revision injectors were prone to clogging, the new ones are better but they can still clog.
This results in, at best, bad spray patterns which can cause bore wash and increased friction on the piston rings.
At worst, and this is the real killer - significantly reduced fueling in that cylinder with the clogged injector. This cylinder is running very lean - and it won't be compensated for via the ECU and lambda sensor which only monitors the net result of all the cylinders operations.

Running lean in a high compression ratio engine is an absolute disaster waiting to happen - running lean will massively crank up combustion temperatures, which are already high due to the high compression ratio.
This will lead to pre-ignition...and then BANG goes your piston.

The most common sign of a piston being destroyed by pre-ignition or extreme detonation is cracking of the ring lands. If you google 1.4 tsi piston failure, every picture show's the piston cracked right on the ring area - never on the skirt or the piston crown.

Ignition issues due to wrong spark plug gap didn't help matters - causing bore wash and more friction on the rings. However it's fueling that's the real killer - clogged injectors being the cause. They clog due to flow design issues, their position in the cylinder and poor fuel quality.

Engine knock can also crank up the cylinder temperature, and bring on pre-ignition. Fuel quality / octane plays a part in this, it's why VW recalibrated the knock sensor with a service campaign after many engines failed - starting in countries such as australia which have poor fuel quality.
They also increased fueling in general, especially under load - as it was running too lean (i.e. too hot = more chance of pre-ignition & knock)

I think running premium fuel which has additives in it to help clean the injectors, and adding in tank injector cleaner once a year will go a long way to making these engines last. Also those who only do short runs, as per usual advice, should give the car a good run now and then (once its warmed up of course).
Short runs will foul the spark plugs and the tips of the injectors - it's good to get a long run or hard run in now and then to burn off deposits.

Having said all the above - i'm in the process of getting all the parts and tools together to fit wossner forged pistons to my 1.4 tsi 160 - not only for peace of mind against piston failure, but i plan to make some big horsepower out of it.

[janherko]

nice elaboration blower...
very true about the piston rings, saw mine totally cracked on the 3rd cylinder/piston back in the day...not exactly a pleasant look.
it´s a shame that you can´t replace pistons from underneath the engine but rather need to strip it all the way...labor cost is a killer then

[edwheels]

As a very recent owner of a 160PS TSI with the 7 Speed DSG I have been scaring myself silly reading this forum (and others) about this engine (and to a some extent the gearbox). I have to keep reminding myself just how many, many 1000s of installations there are out there without problems !

In my favour it's a MY2014 registered April 2014 so many things should have been sorted at its build. It's also covered just 9K miles (1K by me so far) has 2 years VW warranty and already has 2 VW services... I also like to think I drive with mechanical sympathy. I never rev high until oil temp is up, use only high octane quality fuel, rarely use for really short journeys and check oil etc. weekly (have done on all my cars since my first one in 1985!)... I'll probably extend the VW warranty in a couple of years too.

From what I have read, the 160PS TSI has had quite a few revisions before 2014 - plugs, ECU, Software, Injectors, Coil packs... although I can't find a definitive list of what revisions apply from when. Same goes for the DSG 7 speed with revised clutch packs etc. It looks like the 185PS installations (Audi A1 and Polo GTI) are the worst for oil consumption.

I did lots of research on which Scirocco to go for before I bought mine but weirdly none on the problems featured in my research... I guess I was searching for road tests rather than problems. The 160PS with DSG seemed perfect for me as my work involves a lot of London driving as well as frequent longer distance work. Only after I took delivery of mine and registered on a couple of forums did I start reading about the negatives :-o

I've owned other 'unusual' engined cars before though - perhaps it's just my way. An RX8 which was, actually, faultless in the 4 years I had it and a Pug 106 Rallye 1.3 (for it's time a high stressed engine revving to 7200 where the 100BHP it had finally came to play) - also faultless. My worst experience was with a Smart Roadster Coupe - this was a car with 0.8 litre engine pushing out almost 90 BHP - the engine was fine but the gearbox was glitchy and other niggles - it leaked (badly), the fuel gauge malfunctioned, the wheels corroded - I could go on - it was like driving a prototype.

So with all this in mind (and especially from the last post "I think running premium fuel which has additives in it to help clean the injectors, and adding in tank injector cleaner once a year will go a long way to making these engines last. Also those who only do short runs, as per usual advice, should give the car a good run now and then (once its warmed up of course)." ) I am hoping mine will be a keeper (usually change cars every 4-5 years) as the concept and the actual driving experience is incredible.