How is a diesel car more expensive to run?

[Ash-sherwood]

Im looking at getting either the 2.0tdi 170 model, over the 2.0 tsi, im not to fussed that the tsi is slightly quicker, 0-60 in 8 seconds is good enough for me, im use to getting 9.5 seconds in my astra. Anyways, both cars are roughly the same price, so how is a diesel not cheaper to own, i roughly do 220 miles a year both town and 40mph roads and the odd motarway journey say 10 times a year, so it will still benefit me to own a diesel car, but everywhere says diesel cars take longer to get money back, can someone explain this as i cant see sence !

[Cuprabob]

Diesel cars normally cost more to buy and require servicing more often. I would never run a turbo diesel on longlife service regime.

With things like DPF, diesels are not suited to certain journey types. They don't like short journeys or too much town driving. Not sure what your mileage is as I assume 220 miles a year is a typo.

Diesel is more expensive than petrol but that's compensated by the additional fuel economy, assuming you do a high enough mileage.

Unless you do more than 15k miles a year, I would stick to petrol.

[tony4147]

If I remember correctly one of the mags did a comparison between diesel and petrol cars a few weeks ago and I think you needed to be doing 20,000+ a year to just to break even.
Usually diesel engines need more servicing and as Cuprabob says they are not good if they spend most of their life doing short journeys.

[Ash-sherwood]

Haha yes i meant 220 a week, i still dont get it tho, their is no real price difference between the two. But you pay 100 pound more road tax each year, my insurance on the tsi is 230 more for the year, and id save 400 quid a year on fuel saving say 700 quid a year, if i own the car for 3 years ive probably saved 2,000 and chances are ill keep this car for 4 or 5 years. I havent mentioned ill be buying the car 2nd hand, does this change your opinions? im 22 but ill be 23 by i get a roco,

[Paralla]

The residuals on diesels are higher than for the same car with a petrol engine.

My old BMW 330Ci was worth peanuts when I traded it in for my Scirocco. It would have been much more had it been a 330Cd.

I'd recommend a test drive of both before you buy though as they differ quite a bit in how they feel.

I personally like the combination of diesel and DSG as the gearbox eliminates what I think is one of the most unpleasant aspects of diesels which is the almost total lack of torque until the turbo spools up. In a manual diesel I find this annoying in stop-start traffic as it makes achieving smooth progress more difficult than it should be. A related benefit is that the DSG also eliminates the horrible engine shuddering that happens if you cause the revs to drop too much with the clutch when pulling away. I know this make it sound like I don’t know how to drive properly, I do know how to drive it's just that 90% of my driving is in central London so it’s a lot of stop-start.

[goatboy]

The diesel will be cheaper, my quick maths you would save about £400 a year on fuel. If tax and insurance will be cheaper too then you are on to a winner. The diesel may need an extra service over the petrol in 30 years but that only comes in at bout £200 so you are still well up.

The whole diesels are more expensive thing normally comes from when diesels are more expensive to buy new. If you are paying £1000 more for a diesel, but additional mpg then only saves you say £300 a year (diesel being more expensive to buy) then it takes over 3 years to recoup your extra additional outlay. i.e. its not really worth it.

[Mark V]

Exactly - once the cars are a year or so old the petrol to diesel price differential largely disappears. You are then just left with much better fuel ecconomy for slightly more expensive fuel (net gain). The serviceing regime is the same on both cars in the first few years too.

So essentially its a decision to make between buying a new one or used. For the former I think you do need to justify the decision with higher mileage or longer period of ownership. My recently purchased TDI 170 was under a year old at the time of purchase and was the same price as equivelant petrol models avaialable.

[Mark V]

Haha yes i meant 220 a week, i still dont get it tho, their is no real price difference between the two.

I would add that in making that statement you are suggesting the TDI 170 and the TSI 210 are equivelant models - I think that might be stretching things a bit - particularly as the TSI is actually £200 more as a new purchase! The normal situation is that a diesel engine is dearer than the equivelent petrol. Perhaps the base model TS 122 at £19,820 and the base model TDI 140 at £22,225 is a fairer comparison....

[Kerrse]

0-60 in 8 seconds is good enough for me!

With a remap you will see 0-60 in 7secs in the 170

[Gilez]

Although relatively minor, one of the consideration factors for me is the amount of time spent in petrol stations and convenience of not having to do it as often.

I tend to do trips to Wales and other places which are a reasonable distance (say 300 miles+) and back in the same day, and with a petrol I could be looking at filling up on the return journey. Some of the places in Wales can be quite remote too, and you are not guaranteed to see a petrol station for a while. If i am in the office most of the month, a single full tank of diesel pretty much sees the entire month out for commuting.

Having a diesel means I dont particulary need to worry about that.

[jameswh]

I've run various diesels since 1996 including a Passat estate with the 130PS engine. I don't understand the comments about diesels not being good for short journeys - hundreds of thousands of taxi drivers can't be wrong! The Passat estate I ran for 9 years prior to my Scirocco - I had no major engine related mechanical problems in that time - the vast bulk of it spent on short journeys + got a trade in price of over £1000 more than if I'd bought a petrol variant. The diesel variants and the ancillaries are also more robust - the Passat was still on its original battery when I sold it. If you intend to kep a car for a good length of time - it seems to me that a diesel option is a sensible one. The DPF filter is really no big deal and a bit of a red herring - in normal use most people will have no problem with this. The trend for highly stressed - turbocharged/supercharged small capacity engines as in the 122 and 160 models and equivalent Golfs is fine while the cars remain under warranty but judging by the posts which indicate reliability issues on even relatively new cars, I suspect that values of 3-4 year old cars will take a pounding. My Scirocco has behaved impeccably from day 1 and is the most enjoyable and comfortable car to drive especially on country roads- I concur with the comments about the DSG box - it is very well matched with the diesel engine and the acceleration is excellent as is the fuel economy 48mpg around town and 55 on a good run. By comparison the best (still excellent for the size and weight ) fuel economy of the Passat was 48mpg on long motorway journeys.

[Cuprabob]

I don't understand the comments about diesels not being good for short journeys - hundreds of thousands of taxi drivers can't be wrong!

The DPF filter is really no big deal and a bit of a red herring

Most taxi drivers prefer variants without DPFs.

The forums are full of people who have issues with blocked DPFs when just using their cars for town driving and short journeys. VW even have a leaflet to explain the potential DPF issues if used in such circumstances. Although to be fair they are getting better all the time.

I agree that DPF is not an issue if you understand you need to give the car a regular blast to get the exhaust temperature high enough to burn off the soot.

Another reason why people say Diesels are not good for short journeys is the length of time they can take to get up to nominal running temperature. If you're commute is only a couple of miles each day, the car will never reach nominal temperature.

[RisingRoc]

I don't understand the comments about diesels not being good for short journeys - hundreds of thousands of taxi drivers can't be wrong!

The DPF filter is really no big deal and a bit of a red herring

Most taxi drivers prefer variants without DPFs.

The forums are full of people who have issues with blocked DPFs when just using their cars for town driving and short journeys. VW even have a leaflet to explain the potential DPF issues if used in such circumstances. Although to be fair they are getting better all the time.

I agree that DPF is not an issue if you understand you need to give the car a regular blast to get the exhaust temperature high enough to burn off the soot.

Another reason why people say Diesels are not good for short journeys is the length of time they can take to get up to nominal running temperature. If you're commute is only a couple of miles each day, the car will never reach nominal temperature.

Out of curiosity, what is defined as a 'short journey' or a 'long enough' journey?

[Cuprabob]

I don't understand the comments about diesels not being good for short journeys - hundreds of thousands of taxi drivers can't be wrong!

The DPF filter is really no big deal and a bit of a red herring

Most taxi drivers prefer variants without DPFs.

The forums are full of people who have issues with blocked DPFs when just using their cars for town driving and short journeys. VW even have a leaflet to explain the potential DPF issues if used in such circumstances. Although to be fair they are getting better all the time.

I agree that DPF is not an issue if you understand you need to give the car a regular blast to get the exhaust temperature high enough to burn off the soot.

Another reason why people say Diesels are not good for short journeys is the length of time they can take to get up to nominal running temperature. If you're commute is only a couple of miles each day, the car will never reach nominal temperature.

Out of curiosity, what is defined as a 'short journey' or a 'long enough' journey?

I don't think it's ever been defined, but in my head a short journey is where the cars doesn't get to run at nominal operating temperature, so for a typical diesel it could be up to 10 miles before everything is up to temp, longer in winter. As for long enough, I don't know. Not really an issue for me as my commute tends to be between 30 and 60 miles each way.

[RisingRoc]

I don't think it's ever been defined, but in my head a short journey is where the cars doesn't get to run at nominal operating temperature, so for a typical diesel it could be up to 10 miles before everything is up to temp, longer in winter. As for long enough, I don't know. Not really an issue for me as my commute tends to be between 30 and 60 miles each way.

Cheers. My daily commute is about 12miles so hopefully my DPF is doing alright.

[Paralla]

My commute in London stop-start traffic is 10 miles - 30 - 40 minutes and I've never had a DPF problem with my Revo'd 170

[Ash-sherwood]

Yea. The dpf is my only worry but i do more 40/50 mph roads on my 10 mile route to work, i do use my car for short journeys like the gym etc, but i would give the car a blast once a week for 20 mins to clear it all anyways i can always go a longer way home from work which is about 12 miles but all 70mph and country roads. How long does a diesel take to hit tempreture? Surely 10 mins or so?

Im looking at a 59 plate 170 tdi around 14,000 with 45,000 on the clock, anygood? Ive seen a couple on auto trader and theirs a few around in garages near by, but ideally want a white one, think it stands out more. Wheres best to buy 2nd hand vw's from?

[Paralla]

One more thing. Because diesel powered cars take much longer to warm up you don't get much out of the cabin heater for about 10 minutes. Some Sirocco’s have an electric auxiliary heater (I don’t know if mine has) but if I buy another diesel again i will be specifying heated seats.

Does anybody know if it’s possible to retrofit the electric heater?

[Dimbit]

In reply to the question in the topic, my experience so far is that it isn't. Costs about the same to run as my 1.2 punto used to (until you need tyres or insurance :-/). As said already diesels are assumed to be more expensive to buy new.
Heated seats are amazing.
It makes some sense to buy from VW if you want something <3 yrs old. The car supermarkets are not a bad bet after that. Just make sure you pay attention!
I commute 10-15 miles each way. It easily warms up in that time and the DPF hasn't exploded.

[Mark V]

Some Sirocco’s have an electric auxiliary heater (I don’t know if mine has) but if I buy another diesel again i will be specifying heated seats.

Does anybody know if it’s possible to retrofit the electric heater?

Yours almost certainly has it fitted. On cold mornings like this its easy to check - just make sure your climatronic system is set as normal (say 22 degrees) and press A/C on (light on). After a minute or so you will start to feel warm air. You can also check by looking at the coloured wires coming out of the engine bay fuse box - there are photos of what to look for here http://www.sciroccocentral.co.uk/forum/ ... ter#p66634" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It wont work with A/C off.